These sound just like the arguments Skaven apologists make.Originally Posted by Demoulius
"Well if all my rolls go bad then how powerful is my army, huh?".
Keep as same d6 wounds
Change to d3 wounds
Change to d3+1 wounds
These sound just like the arguments Skaven apologists make.
"Well if all my rolls go bad then how powerful is my army, huh?".
Considering the lists you've posted in that Empire review topic, I would bring four cannons against you too.
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Put a shrine in front of the dragon if you can't hide it (WHY can't you hide it??), watch cannon balls getting stuck in the shrine.
I left mah dragon in the open against 3 cannons and it died zomg nerf.
Snake
Cannon balls no longer get stuck on scenery, unless it is impassable terrain or an obstacle (walls/fences, and are destroyed if the cannon ball hits them).
There is no place in the rulebook that says cannon ball's bounce stop on hills, forests or rivers.
However, if the designed point on the ground is not visible for the cannon (because there is a hill between, f.e.), the point can't be chosen.
No one said anything about stuck in scenery. I said use the scenery to hide it, like behind a building or a rock; or use a cheap-ass shrine to absorb the cannonballs. Two separate concepts.
Snake
4 armies use the rules for canons: Empire, Dwarves, Skaven (slightly modified rules with exploding variable strength template) and Ogres (with improved rebound)
A canon hitting a bus has a very good chance to remove one rank.They're going up in points, and tend to occupy that hotly contest Special percentage, and have a fair chance of going wrong and giving up VPs to your opponent. They are the natural prey of a good variety of units, and despite interwebs anecdotal wisdom, need to work to make their points back. Unfavourable overshoot, not bouncing (at all or far enough) and pretty much useless against rank and file infantry.
A canon hitting an elite infantry unit with easily kill a few of them (3-4 dead swordmasters or chosen is not bad, even if a canon can usually find a better target)
A canon will probably kill one mourfang or demi-griffon, reducing the unit threath, and probably making it take a panic test (a mournfang unit outside the general range is only Ld7)
And if you add the sniping effect, you can fire at the opponent general, BSB or wizard to try to snipe it, and if he roll 2+ for LoS, you still get to kill models in his unit (usually either an elite bodyguard unit, or a small bunker). For a small bunker, kill a few models with BS shooting first, to remove LoS and then fire the canon. For a larger unit, the canon will make more kills.
Yeah. Really, REALLY not seeing the problem here? And 8th Edition hasn't just put their points up, but curbed their worse excesses. No more 'whoops I overshot and yet miraculously managed to scudge your expensive wizard you'd cleverly hidden'. If it doesn't kill something Monstrous, it stops dead, and hits nothing else....
And just as character ridden monsters are the scourge of many units, shouldn't character ridden monsters face a threat equal to their own?
The current canon rules are already very effective against monsters or lone characters, with the canon being able to get usualy twice its own point with one lucky shot before your opponent even get the chance to act if you play first, having the full canon affect both rider and mount double this potential, meaning that a 120 points canon firing at a ridden monster has twice the destruction potential that the same canon firing a normal monster.
Having the canon hit randomised would already be very effective, as you would eitheir hit a lord level character (usually), or a big monster, both already really good target. If you read the house rules that I and other suggested, you will find less extreme changes suggested that would still make canon damage both rider and mount but not will 200% power like they do now.
Be aware that I don't have any problem with the current power level or precision of canon against very large targets (big ranked units, monsters, some warmachines, etc ...), it's just that I think that doubling this already great destruction potential because there is a character mounted on a monster, or being able to snipe a small character (even with LoS saving you 5/6th of the time if in a unit) is inappropriate.
From a certain point of view, it's the same problem with some of the killer spells: having a spell able to kill a large % of an unit, with the spell being more effecvtive the bigger the unit is (like having each model making a test or taking a hit) is a good counter for deathstarts and other big hordes, but when the same spell can both kill the unit *and* snipe a character in the unit, suddenly there is a problem (and if you keep your characters in normal sized units, those spells will still cripple the unit with a chance to kill the character as a bonus).
A spell that can snipe character in a unit but that only does that, especially if short ranged ? No problem.
A spell with a large template or an effect on each model in an unit ? No problem.
The problem is when you get both in the same package, then you just fire the spell at the unit with the opponent general or level 4.
I usually play with MMU, and my characters are usually in several different units so I don't have all my eggs in the same basket, but a dwellers will still kill my wizard lord 1/2 of the time and remove 25-50% of his unit while doing it.
Nobody has a problem with the spell from dark magic that does a S2 hit on each model in an unit without armour saves. This is a very good spell, able to remove 1/3 of a T3 unit on average (with probably a panic check), and while characters doesn't get LoS, a S2 hit that still let you use a ward save and that do at worst *one* wound is good but not overkill.
Hum, that's a possible solution, having a d6 scatter at long range (replacing the linear scatter before the rebound), and d6 - BS when at short range could be a solution.
Probably is a funny word.
When you say bus I'm guessing you mean cavalry. A rank is 5 of them. To even hit 5 of them, you not only need a perfect shot with the maximum 10" bounce (each dude is 2" long), but you need to play against some retard who deplayed his 20+ strong cav unit in deep ranks against cannons. Oh, and there are to wound rolls and sometimes ward saves.
When you are deploying elite infantry against cannons, even if you have taken a massive 30+ unit (no unit caps in your gaming area I'm guessing) you do not deploy them more than 3 deep. A cannon ball killing three swordmasters is pretty meh. And it still needs to hit all 3 ranks and wound.
A cannon hitting a mournfang has a 5/6 chance to wound, and a 2/3 chance to kill, which is already just over half chance. And thats if it hits, which is around 70%ish? Saying 'probably' for something with under 40% chance isn't right. 'Maybe' would have been more appropriate.
You forgot to mention that hitting only a rider or his monster is appropriate, but only if they give points away separately.
Snake
I play beastmen and I think Cannons are fine, I use a ghorgon and a Jabber, although I may tone down to a cygor. Cannons get one turn of shooting, where they have to roll a 4+ to even fire, Then the harpies, flying doombull, Jabber and razrgors/scouting Brayshaman, eat them. Then it's on to the mage bunker. Gors hyped up on Beast banner and wildform make a mess out of anything. A geared up doombull will beat a bloodthirster in combat, and a ghorgon has the Keeper's spirit swallower ability that heals d3 wounds. Now what do dwarves and Empire have against that? They need 6! cannon shots to drop all my Big guys, in one turn, while rolling a 4+ and not misfiring or missing. A nerf to cannons would ruin the game for them.
I think the easiest way to stop lone character sniping would be to copy the dwarf anvil's rule where it cannot target non large target characters. Giving lone characters a 2+ save against warmachines would probably fix things. Scattering the ball's landing point would make it worse against everything.
with bus he means long, deep units like 5-wide 50 slaves & goblins.
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In my opinion there are two problems with cannons.
1. They lack a mechanic for secondary hits.
Though it is lacking, it is not necessarily omitted: It's hard to imagine someone get "slightly hit" by a cannon ball, where-as the concept of secondary hits from shrapnel and such from a stone thrower is pretty well established.
However, the secondary hits mechanic allows the designers an option for stone throwers in that a combined model can have the primary hit assigned to one of its parts while the remainder suffer only secondary hits.
For cannon it seems the designers only had two options: Either all the parts of the combined model are hit, or only one part is hit. With the increased power of template weapons I guess it made sense to go for the power-up.
I would, however, have been fine with cannonbals causing a single hit on the model. In fact, if not for the multi-crew Stegadon models I'd even be fine with the owning player deciding if the cannonball hits his Chaos Lord or his Chaos Dragon mount.
2. Cover has no effect.
In the black-and-white world of cannons and stone throwers you are either completely hidden or it's hunting season! The cannon needs to see where it needs to shoot, but when it comes to flimsy obstructions such as woods and walls, shooting through these is no problem! The worst thing, however is models. Models have legs and arms in all directions, and often come in big densely packed units. But some sort of communal mental disorder seems to affect players with cannons that make them want see through the wall of flesh and steel of their own men! And since models generally don't completely fill the volume of space above their base, it seems impossible to prove that the cannon can't draw line of sight through some infinitesimal gap in the unit.
In my opinion, the game needs a mechanic for dealing with shooting that only requires line of sight and does not require rolls to hit. There are already effects that address this kind of shooting, but they have not been codified into the standard rules. I would like to see a proper rule for this, something like this:
Ready, Aim, Fire!
War machines that make shooting attacks that do not require To Hit rolls are still affected by cover: If the war machine draws line of sight to the target through cover it must roll 1d6 to be able to make the shot. It must roll 2 or more if shooting through soft cover, or 3 or more if shooting through hard cover. If the roll is failed then the war machine does not shoot this turn: It has spent too much time aiming or calibrating the shot and has missed the opportunity to fire.
Effects like the Skaven Storm Banner could be streamlined to require a Ready, Aim Fire! roll of 4+ instead.
The thing I would like is for cannon users to make the effort to place their cannons in a good position and leave open lines of fire instead of just plonking them down behind a unit and claim line of sight to everything.
-T10
Will Orc for food!
Yeeeeeah 5 goblins died, go cannon, go cannon...
Snake
Then honored T10 we'd be back to "I got a hill, you got a hill" hammer, and the results would be the same. Cannons are just undercosted for dwarves skaven and Ogres. 2 are 7th books, and The ogre Ironblaster ison a can't pivot to fire chariot.
The Skaven and Ogre cannons are on a platform, specifically designed with shooting over one's own units in mind. Dwarfs are short and do not obstruct LoS from their own warmachines. Empire took a price hike already.
Also, I believe large targets are unable to claim cover. So ready, aim, fire stuff would only kick in when shooting at suboptimal targets - whats the point? Cover has no effect because it should have no effect on the big targets. If you're having to shoot at bad targets, then having them claim cover is just salt in the wound - completely unnecesary.
Sexiest_hero, whether cannons are undercosted or not isn't actually all that important - you will only have 1 to 3, so even with a 20% cost increase the overall impact on the army will be pretty negligable. They are a must take, because the armies which have them have no efficient answer to monsterous threats, not becuase they cost 10 points less than they should or whatever.
Snake
Guys, about the LoS of the Cannon.
It is good to remind that the cannon needs LoS with the point of the ground you wanna place your cannon ball, not the targets you want to hit.
For example, there is a hill between the enemy giant and your cannon. Even if you have LoS with the giant, you need to place the cannon ball in a point in the ground inside the cannon's LoS.
So, if a hill covers the ground between it and the giant, you can't place the cannon ball there.
But then if you hide the giant out of LoS behind a hill, the cannon shoots at said hill and nautrally rolls and hits the giant, people will moan to no end
Most tournaments standardize cannon LoS - if you see it, you can aim at an optimal point in front of it. Its not a buff or a nerf, it just avoids retarded situations going both ways.
Snake
Really? Ogres need a cannon? And Ratmen too? Can we bet on Brets getting a cannon due to having ties to Marienberg and Tiela? After all it makes sense, Bretonnia has the worlds greatest navy outside of the H.E! Thus, why wouldn't they have cannons!?!?
You see where I'm going with this? Regardless of whether or not a "army" has a cannon in their fluff, in their books etc. . . it doesn't have to be a playable unit. The game is focused on making a "balanced" system and some archtypes and historical influences just don't dictate "certain" units regardless of what fluff says. If that were true, they everyone would have cannons, zeppelins, and lightening powered rocket cans.
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Nothing to do with fluff my friend. Ogres and dwarves need cannons because they are expensive and have low initiative - meaning even if they manage to kill a monster in combat, the monster will put an unreasonably massive dent on them. Empire can't really kill monsters in combat. The warp lightning cannon isn't really a cannon, its got variable strength and drops templates.
You bring up Brets - they can deal with monsters without the use of a cannon. They have a good (and reasonably fast at I3+) high-S damage output on the charge, and are very resistant to be killed by monsters; and they also have HKB in their army's arsenal. Hence, for brets = no cannon.
Snake
I think model design is rarely, if ever, driven by the in-game needs of a race. Ogres got a cannon because they were making the scraplauncher into a double kit and had a good idea for a honking great cannon.
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