Empire MSU

[Master Of Fate]

Well crunching numbers and scanning for ideal competitive lists I came across an idea I over looked entirely with The Empire's Block/Buff format. After tossing around numbers for around 15 hours and going through several pages of a note book I settled on this as a possible variant.

2495/2500pts

Lords: 519pts
General
Griffon
Full Plate
Enchanted Shield
Sword of Might

Wizard Lord (Shadow)
Lv4
Power Stone


Heros: 480pts
Ludwig

Engineer
Pigeon Bombs

Engineer
Pigeon Bombs
War Horse
Barding
Light Armor

Witch Hunter
Brace of Pistols

Witch Hunter
Brace of Pistols


Core: 626pts
Knights [w/GW] (9)
Sargent
Standard
Musician

Archers Regiment (13)
Standard

Archers Detachment (7)

Archers Detachment (7)

Archers Regiment (13)
Standard

Archers Detachment (7)

Archers Detachment (7)

Special: 370pts
Reiks Knights (5)
Standard
Gleaming Pennant

Pistolier's (5)
Sargent
Brace of Pistols

Pistolier's (5)
Sargent
Brace of Pistols


Rare:

Steam Tank

Steam Tank


Unit Game Plan
The army focus on tying down enemy units so they can be engaged on my terms with faster more maneuverable units.

The General him self is ok... but its the fact his LD is given at 18" and he can be were he needs to be when focusing on a unit hes also cheaper than a War Alter and the Griffon Packs a bit of a punch.

The Wizard Lord is ideal as a shadow, being able to adjust enemies stats, Strength vs Stank, Toughness vs volley's of arrows, WS/BS/I/M vs just about anything all prove very useful, but its the Lores Attribute of teleporting with witch hunters that makes it Ideal to hunting enemy characters, while giving a few good DD spells vs low I armies.

Ludwig, he and the 9 man unit of knights with great weapons are a reserve unit ment to avoid conflict unless they are a finisher unit, but can hold for a few turns on there own. His main reason in the list is the massive 18" BSB bubble.

The witch hunters in addition to helping concern the enemy about his characters, serve as decoy cover for the wizard, and provide MR2 to the small units of archers they join vs those Magic Missle attacks.

Engineers, with the current rules for Pidgin bombs, it would seem unwise not to take them and hide them some where, seeing they need to drop the bomb on them selves more than once to die and can move and use them and at a different target from any unit they join while providing a means of dropping Str 4 AP Small Blasts into CC.

The Archers are cheap as swords men and skirmish and shoot so not to shabby for there points even if there job is to redirect the enemy and annoy the one unit hit by wither.

Pistolier's are very fast vanguard units that can provide additional ranged damage and disrupt the enemy from the rear when it presents it self with there ability to do drive by shootings at 16".

The 5 man Rieks Knights are going to be doing the conga line to limit the attacks back at them.(LD8 stubbern /LD9 general 18" with a RR Gleaming Pennat/18"BSB)

Steam Tanks, with the revised rules are random for movement but much more reliable for everything else the improved points cost, cannon strength and the fact the steam gun can now hurt those pesky T3 hords on a 3+ really is better than Str 2 ignores armor for versatility.

The list is rough and needs revising but I would like others input and suggestions. Deployment I have atm 8? units I am not to worried about not going first.

[DeathlessDraich]

Well done in attempting an MSU for 8th ed.
Except for the double Steam Tank I would modify everything for an all-comers or tournament army - but maybe your intention is to have fun with MSU?
Some observations/suggestions:

1) Bigger knight blocks (>15) or an all cavalry army is the best possible Empire list. - 25% Core requirement used for 1 block of Inner Circle is worthy of consideration.

2) Pistoliers are great provided you know the principles of the Fast Cavalry Dodge

3) Archers are good as Sacrificials (although I prefer Halberdiers) but slow to 'help out' with your main combat units

4) Your general is vulnerable against some armies.

[Hulkster]

Not a bad idea

I would stick the Iron Curse Icon on the General for some defense against war machines

[GodlessM]

It actually is a bad idea as it has little to no killing power, and for all the craze about MSU lately this is where it fails; if you can't kill things you can't win. Steam Tanks are the only hard hitters here and they don't have the general ability to deal with big units as after the initial charge most of their damage is done in the movement phase and so they don't win combats.

[Mercules]

I would actually expect to see Demi-Gryphs in Empire MSU. After all you don't want them in big units and they keep their damage going even after charging unlike other units.

[Valaraukar]

Other good units for empire MSU are Flagellants and Greatswords as they are high damage, unbreakable and stubborn but must get combo flank charges or forced clipping etc. to work or higher initiative armies will butcher them. Used with small units of knights they can work well but have a very steep learning curve.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Three units to hold up stuff, one unit as a "reserve" to avoid combat (?) and exactly...well, what? Nothing?!? to actually fight? Hmm, not my cup of tea.

I'm not at all sure how 9 Knights are supposed to "finish up" 20 Chosen, 40 Big Uns, 70+ Slaves or anything inbetween. Granted, Steam Tanks are cool and will cause casualties but it's often going to take them a while.

[Jerry]

Very character heavy so you'll be missing the many aspect of many small units. 1000pts on characters is far too much to make MSU work IMO. Also as others have stated empire MSU just isn't killy enough.

[Warhammer Madman]

I looked into something similar but I approached it from the special allowance. first thing to think about is to go demi-gryf or not, I would as they add some hitting power and look great. second is reiksguard I would take at least a couple of units of five or six (I dislike conga lines but a small unit of six three by two looks quite cool and achieves a similar effect while retaining all strikes). I would now take a cannon or two for the simple fact that you need to deal with monsters to get your demi-gryfs into combat with squishy units...

so for special you have 9 demi-gryfs with 3 musicians, 12 reiksguard 2 musicians, 2 cannons (roughly 1100pts)

now core... were looking for something to get flank charges and take advantage of the reiksguard taking units in the front (in effect we want units of knights for flank charges). we also want some shooty (or I would as I like to play in as many phases as possible (when not playing dwarfs)) I would use crossbows (not in huge numbers) but the range will be useful for this sort of list...

so say one unit of 15 crossbows with a detachment of 10 more, 10 inner-circle knights with full command (only unit with a banner) and 10 more knights

now we are looking at characters... I like your lord setup on the whole but I would drop the sword of might and swap the enchanted shield for a standard one. I would also take a Bsb...

Msu empire can and will work but you simply need to take the hitty units with this list your army will fill the table and you need to get flank charges. as soon as you master that you will get results!
(as a side note I think a steam tank is useful but over rated in a list like this, I would personally take the pair of cannons over them as monsters are the problem for this list and you need to be able to reach out and get them rather than hope they charge what can handle them in my experience).

[Master Of Fate]

Thank you all for the feed back guys I will use the information in the trials with this list and post how it goes when I get the chance.

Well done in attempting an MSU for 8th ed.
Except for the double Steam Tank I would modify everything for an all-comers or tournament army - but maybe your intention is to have fun with MSU?
Some observations/suggestions:

1) Bigger knight blocks (>15) or an all cavalry army is the best possible Empire list. - 25% Core requirement used for 1 block of Inner Circle is worthy of consideration.
2) Pistoliers are great provided you know the principles of the Fast Cavalry Dodge
3) Archers are good as Sacrificials (although I prefer Halberdiers) but slow to 'help out' with your main combat units
4) Your general is vulnerable against some armies.

Yea it was a bit for fun but also a bit competitive.
1) Large blacks of Knights defeat the purpose of the MSU xD, thou I did consider using more knights but they just become targets and originally I did have an IC unit but needed "symmetry in my other core units" and a points reduction in core
2) Absolutely learned how people ignore them when there are other targets as well.
3) Yes and it the fact they have skirmish, the ability to mark reform on the move that allows them to all focus fire on one unit (hopefully hit by wither)
4) In deed he is sub optimal But he can charge over my other units allowing me more heavy units to collapse on my target enemy

It actually is a bad idea as it has little to no killing power, and for all the craze about MSU lately this is where it fails; if you can't kill things you can't win. Steam Tanks are the only hard hitters here and they don't have the general ability to deal with big units as after the initial charge most of their damage is done in the movement phase and so they don't win combats.

The list as the army, focuses on synergy and picking apart the enemy, tying down units till i can bring a greater part of my force down on them. The steam tanks are unbreakable so im not worried about them "winning combats" to make the enemy break, its the fact they have a STR 4 Breath Weapon that makes them awsome vs hordes (it uses the Engineers Iniative in combat to fire and counts to resolution)

Other good units for empire MSU are Flagellants and Greatswords as they are high damage, unbreakable and stubborn but must get combo flank charges or forced clipping etc. to work or higher initiative armies will butcher them. Used with small units of knights they can work well but have a very steep learning curve.

Indeed I considered both of them but they would become quick targets to shooting and are points heavy thou I may swap in a unit of great swords.

Three units to hold up stuff, one unit as a "reserve" to avoid combat (?) and exactly...well, what? Nothing?!? to actually fight? Hmm, not my cup of tea.

I'm not at all sure how 9 Knights are supposed to "finish up" 20 Chosen, 40 Big Uns, 70+ Slaves or anything inbetween. Granted, Steam Tanks are cool and will cause casualties but it's often going to take them a while.

The steam tanks are great at holding a combat no doubt but the conga Reiks knights allow me that turn 2 ability to hold up that horde of savage boys or chaos warriors taking them out of the game for a few turns, also allowing me to drop small blasts on them via Pigeoneer. The 9 knights serve as a body guard unit for my 18" BSB they again are a reserve unit for collapsing on an enemy but also to ensure I have the field for BSB bubble.

Very character heavy so you'll be missing the many aspect of many small units. 1000pts on characters is far too much to make MSU work IMO. Also as others have stated empire MSU just isn't killy enough.

There is a lv4 shadow wizard that (swaps with the WH's allowing for character assassinations and for him to stay out of the way. There is a Ld 9 18" bubble that can provide a fair number of high dmg combat attack almost any where on the field when I collapse on an enemy unit. There are 2 small 24", no LoS, into cc, Str4 Blast templets they should speak for them selves, and a 18" BSB.

Empire to be successful as an army will appear a bit character heavy, this list has the bare minimum. Each of the characters focus on that synergy and the fact they add more hitting power to the army with more versatility than any other one unit.

I looked into something similar but I approached it from the special allowance. first thing to think about is to go demi-gryf or not, I would as they add some hitting power and look great. second is reiksguard I would take at least a couple of units of five or six (I dislike conga lines but a small unit of six three by two looks quite cool and achieves a similar effect while retaining all strikes). I would now take a cannon or two for the simple fact that you need to deal with monsters to get your demi-gryfs into combat with squishy units...

so for special you have 9 demi-gryfs with 3 musicians, 12 reiksguard 2 musicians, 2 cannons (roughly 1100pts)

now core... were looking for something to get flank charges and take advantage of the reiksguard taking units in the front (in effect we want units of knights for flank charges). we also want some shooty (or I would as I like to play in as many phases as possible (when not playing dwarfs)) I would use crossbows (not in huge numbers) but the range will be useful for this sort of list...

so say one unit of 15 crossbows with a detachment of 10 more, 10 inner-circle knights with full command (only unit with a banner) and 10 more knights

now we are looking at characters... I like your lord setup on the whole but I would drop the sword of might and swap the enchanted shield for a standard one. I would also take a Bsb...

Msu empire can and will work but you simply need to take the hitty units with this list your army will fill the table and you need to get flank charges. as soon as you master that you will get results!
(as a side note I think a steam tank is useful but over rated in a list like this, I would personally take the pair of cannons over them as monsters are the problem for this list and you need to be able to reach out and get them rather than hope they charge what can handle them in my experience).

Originally I had the Demigryph Unit with the Steel Standard, but decided a Stank was more efficiency in several facets. A cannon is almost half the price of a Stank, which now does the same thing with its cannon and is ALOT harder to kill and can contribute to tying/beating a unit down.


Crossbows, are 22% more expensive cannot move and shoot, reform and do not have the -1 to be hit at a range. I did consider them but when your whole army needs to move and change its facing vs that one unit with T1 they just dont make it and will become the target of enemy blast weapons.
Your also suggesting dropping core banners which in my experience is a grave mistake in 1/6 games.

My lords, the General with his set up has a 1+ save and 3 S5 I5 hits to add just that little more staying power for 5 pts and a little more combat res. Also I have the biggest BSB bubble in the game, Ludwig has an 18" bubble and a 9 man guard of GS knights to assist on a collapsing unit.

Thank you all for your input I will be using it in the trials.

[GodlessM]

The list as the army, focuses on synergy and picking apart the enemy, tying down units till i can bring a greater part of my force down on them. The steam tanks are unbreakable so im not worried about them "winning combats" to make the enemy break, its the fact they have a STR 4 Breath Weapon that makes them awsome vs hordes (it uses the Engineers Iniative in combat to fire and counts to resolution)

Well if you are content with draws then so be it, but to win games you need to kill in bulk and win combats. Picking apart the enemy isn't viable anymore with how large unit sizes are, and the idea of 'bringing a greater part of your force down on them' is dependent on the rest of the force being available, which it won't be fit can't even kill the enemy to disengage itself.