The mighty few, or which army is most "compact"?

[lekajaw]

Not that I would recommend it, but you can get a Tyranid army with 17 models at 2500 points. Pair of fully kitted winged tyrants, two sets of hive gaurd, 6 warriors with all the fixings, and 3 tyrannofexes. I mean, honestly, who wouldn't pay 430 points for an HQ who doesn't have an invulnerable save?

[FashaTheDog]

*Quietly coughs in the back of the room.*

[Anakonda]

I specifically do not want to go into Forgeworld etc for personal reasons (except to get different-looking minis for codex stuff).

The Dante BA thing seems interesting, ill look into it. How does it behave? is it "spiky" (i.e. jumping between good/bad)? Is it relying on "cheesy" stuff thats frowned upon (like what someone mentioned about the grey knights)? Is it generally fun to play?

[S_A_T_S]

I'm so glad you said "and what if I don't want GK?", as there have been a LOT of these 'smallest number of models in an army' threads since they came out and it is boring...

Dante SG army should be good fun. I don't play it but I do use BA. In my brief experience with SG, they weren't good for me, mostly due to the fact that I don't play a lot of MEQ forces. 5 2 attack 2+ save guys with power weapons aren't going to do much to a 20-ork slugga unit, and they will die to return attacks. Against MEQ, eldar and maybe necrons, with a few sanguinary priests/noviates dotted about, I could see them being pretty nasty. I would suggest maybe taking a second HQ (librarian w/JP) and a 2nd honour guard for the second priest and possibly more special weps. Remember the traditional tactic with Dante - honour guard w/ 4xmelta, deepstrike behind nastiest enemy tank (no scatter from dante's rule ) then blast away. It's almost enough to make me want to actually make an honour guard of my own...

[Anakonda]

I'm so glad you said "and what if I don't want GK?", as there have been a LOT of these 'smallest number of models in an army' threads since they came out and it is boring...

Dante SG army should be good fun. I don't play it but I do use BA. In my brief experience with SG, they weren't good for me, mostly due to the fact that I don't play a lot of MEQ forces. 5 2 attack 2+ save guys with power weapons aren't going to do much to a 20-ork slugga unit, and they will die to return attacks. Against MEQ, eldar and maybe necrons, with a few sanguinary priests/noviates dotted about, I could see them being pretty nasty. I would suggest maybe taking a second HQ (librarian w/JP) and a 2nd honour guard for the second priest and possibly more special weps. Remember the traditional tactic with Dante - honour guard w/ 4xmelta, deepstrike behind nastiest enemy tank (no scatter from dante's rule ) then blast away. It's almost enough to make me want to actually make an honour guard of my own...

Havent played much vs BA, and havent seen their codex yet, so dont understand many of the things you say, but it does sound interesting.
So as dante, i go for him, 5 sanguine guard boxes and 2 death company boxes, with possible 2nd hq like priest? Sounds right before i start googling stuff up or?

[Anakonda]

deepstrike behind nastiest enemy tank (no scatter from dante's rule )

Also, i just looked through the BA codex... and i couldnt find anything about no scatter for dante :s
from what i can see he has pref enemy, -ws/bs AOE, the reroll standard and melta pistol thing... Did i miss something?

[S_A_T_S]

Havent played much vs BA, and havent seen their codex yet, so dont understand many of the things you say, but it does sound interesting.
So as dante, i go for him, 5 sanguine guard boxes and 2 death company boxes, with possible 2nd hq like priest? Sounds right before i start googling stuff up or?

Sorry, forgot you were returning to 40k rather than just after a new army.

1st off, Dante has an ability that lets him and the squad he joins not scatter when they deepstrike onto the battlefield using their jump packs - essentially parachuting on where you like; normally you'd roll a scatter dice and they would go D6" in that direction. Not with Dante, so you can stick them right behind a tank and be pretty much guaranteed to kill it immediately with 4x melta guns in his Honour Guard (HQ bodyguard unit).

2nd, BA can take priests as an elite option (1-3 priests per slot) or you get one included in each Honour Guard unit. Priests give everyone within 6" Feel No Pain (they get an 'extra' 4+ save if they fail their normal save; no Feel No Pain roll if they aren't allowed a normal save in the first place i.e. vs power weapons, plasma, melta). They also give everything around them Furious Charge (when the unit charges they get +1 Initiative and +1 Strength, so more likely to get to hit before victims and also more likely to hurt them). Combine the FNP save with the 2+ save on the Sanguinary Guard (SG) and they will be hard to kill. However, sheer weight of attacks is always a good way to kill elite heavy infantry, hence avoid big mobs (15-20+) of orks, 'nids and guard.

3rd, MEQ mean Marine EQuivalent, so anything with a 3+ save and usually toughness 4 (Chaos Space Marines, all variations of loyalist Space Marines, Tau Battlesuits, and I'm sure others can add to that list). As about half of players use MEQ armies, it's what lists are usually measured against. SG should be reasonably good vs. MEQ, as they have a good save, power weapons and access to inferno pistols (mini-melta guns in pistol form). Problem is you will be outnumbered, you will just have to be rather tactical about it.

BA also have pretty good librarians, so if you want to take an extra Honour Guard, they are a good option.

EDIT: Are you sure you have the current codex? If you look on Dante's description (pg. 53), he has a rule called Tactical Precision - Dante and his squad (if he joins one and they are equipped with jump packs) do NOT roll for scatter when they deploy by deepstrike. He also has Surgical Strike - his unit gains the Hit & Run special rule, so they can opt to run from combat at the end of any assault phase. He can also cripple an enemy independent character with his Death Mask. Why do I not run this guy more often?!?!

[dangerboyjim]

How about 2 x Big Meks

Which gives you....

5 Dreads (two of which are troops)

Then a couple of tooled up battlewagons stuffed withs Nobs in mega armour.

Maybe 25 - models?

I don't think you'd win much, but it would be kind of fun.

Especially fun if your opponent has gone out loaded for Ork with loads of flamers.

[Anakonda]

EDIT: Are you sure you have the current codex? If you look on Dante's description (pg. 53), he has a rule called Tactical Precision - Dante and his squad (if he joins one and they are equipped with jump packs) do NOT roll for scatter when they deploy by deepstrike. He also has Surgical Strike - his unit gains the Hit & Run special rule, so they can opt to run from combat at the end of any assault phase. He can also cripple an enemy independent character with his Death Mask. Why do I not run this guy more often?!?!

Replying to edit first:
Er.... My friend has necron and BA codices with him, and his BA codex only has 27 pages... The front page says "As featured in the June and July 2007 editions. Revised and updated for the 5th edition of Warhammer 40000".

[Anakonda]

Replying to edit first:
Er.... My friend has necron and BA codices with him, and his BA codex only has 27 pages... The front page says "As featured in the June and July 2007 editions. Revised and updated for the 5th edition of Warhammer 40000".

HAH! On second look it seems like its some kind of white dwarf thing, and to think that he honestly believed it was a "real" codex, lol. At least his necron codex is proper.

I guess ill have to wait until i get my hands on *real* BA codex before i can judge the army, oh well. Now to read and respond to your actual advices

[Bunnahabhain]

Nope, that isn't the current one. They got a full new codex last year.

[Anakonda]

Nope, that isn't the current one. They got a full new codex last year.

6 ed or? Just so i know which one to look at

[S_A_T_S]

This one. It's the 5th Ed. book (6th ed. 40k is coming out later this year according to rumour), and only been out for a year or so, so it's the gonna be around for quite a few years.

[Anakonda]

This one. It's the 5th Ed. book (6th ed. 40k is coming out later this year according to rumour), and only been out for a year or so, so it's the gonna be around for quite a few years.

Okay cheers!

Meanwhile is it possible for you to please explain more about the whole "elites become troops" thingie, as i do not recall anything similar in my CSM codex from back when i played :S

[Ivellis]

Okay cheers!

Meanwhile is it possible for you to please explain more about the whole "elites become troops" thingie, as i do not recall anything similar in my CSM codex from back when i played :S

Some codices have HQ choices that move units from one force organization slot to another. Dante as an example allows you to take Sanguinary Guard as troops when usually they are elites. Nearly all the Marine codices have characters with such an ability, as do Orks and Dark Eldar.

[Anakonda]

Some codices have HQ choices that move units from one force organization slot to another. Dante as an example allows you to take Sanguinary Guard as troops when usually they are elites. Nearly all the Marine codices have characters with such an ability, as do Orks and Dark Eldar.

Where in codex are such entries usually located? I remember browsing throuch some orc codexes a while ago and i dont recall seeing anything like it (im not saying its not there, im saying i tend to be quite blind).
Like for example dante's thing. Is it explained on Dante's card, or on the SG card, or somewhere else, or?

[carlisimo]

Meanwhile is it possible for you to please explain more about the whole "elites become troops" thingie, as i do not recall anything similar in my CSM codex from back when i played :S

It started during 4th edition with the Ork and Eldar codices. Taking a spiritseer allows Eldar wraithguard to be taken as troops instead of elites (if you want), and a big mek lets you take deff dreads as troops instead of heavy support (take those as examples, I might've gotten the details wrong there). In 5th edition it's usually been special characters who have that effect.

[Anakonda]

It started during 4th edition with the Ork and Eldar codices. Taking a spiritseer allows Eldar wraithguard to be taken as troops instead of elites (if you want), and a big mek lets you take deff dreads as troops instead of heavy support (take those as examples, I might've gotten the details wrong there). In 5th edition it's usually been special characters who have that effect.

Hmmm sounds interesting, defo.

So it seems like dante box, 6 SG boxes, honor guard for dante box (did someone say death company as models?)... sounds about right?
Basically i want to have a basic idea of what to look for when i actually start to research it properly (read: when my finances get better, and internet stops lagging terribly).

[S_A_T_S]

Where in codex are such entries usually located? Like for example dante's thing. Is it explained on Dante's card, or on the SG card, or somewhere else, or?

They do seem to be unnecessarily hard to find. In Dante's case, it's in his entry in the army list itself, until the subheading Master of the Host. I think I have seen them in box outs in the HQ section in other books, like the Mounted Assault rule for Space Marine Bikers armies.

So it seems like dante box, 6 SG boxes, honor guard for dante box (did someone say death company as models?)... sounds about right?
Basically i want to have a basic idea of what to look for when i actually start to research it properly (read: when my finances get better, and internet stops lagging terribly).

That's basically what you will need. Each SG 5-man is 200pts before you add on all the upgrades, so you are looking at almost exactly 1600pts there, including honour guard with JPs but no other upgrades on anything. You won't have enough melta guns for the massed melta honour guard I mentioned earlier, but you can always buy this to sort that (although it has gone up by almost £2 since I last bought a pack) or use bitz sites. In fact, go with a bitz site like Bitzbox or The Bitz Store, as you can get the apothecary parts from the command squad set from them as well. Mind you, inferno pistols might do just as well in a pinch, as Dante will allow them to get in close range as soon as they come down. Think about squeezing in 1-2 Saguinary priests as well, to spread the Feel No Pain and Furious Charge, make them a little more survivable vs hordes.

[Anakonda]

They do seem to be unnecessarily hard to find. In Dante's case, it's in his entry in the army list itself, until the subheading Master of the Host. I think I have seen them in box outs in the HQ section in other books, like the Mounted Assault rule for Space Marine Bikers armies.

Ahh go figure. One of the most important rules gets hidden with a single line... GW do like to overcomplicate stuff.
Really do appreciate your help guys, i begin to remember now why i loved the WH/WS community so much.

Any advice on the actual boxes?