A question about Khaine and Space marines

[mitsukai]

Hey one and all firstly I hope this is in the right place, If not could a kind Mod move to the relevant thread.

Now onto the question, Has there ever been a case of of Space Marines or indeed any of the forces of Imperium being declared traitor and excommunicated for their belief or following of Kaela Mensha Khaine?? Would any Space Marine be able to break his pyscho indoctrination to follow his own thinking as to be able to follow Khaine?? Even the Chaos Space marines?

Thanks for any info given or any ideas on how this could work

Only reason I`d like to know is for CSM army going by name of "Sons of Khaine" I`m tempted to try and do.

Thanks again

[Theocracity]

Hey one and all firstly I hope this is in the right place, If not could a kind Mod move to the relevant thread.

Now onto the question, Has there ever been a case of of Space Marines or indeed any of the forces of Imperium being declared traitor and excommunicated for their belief or following of Kaela Mensha Khaine?? Would any Space Marine be able to break his pyscho indoctrination to follow his own thinking as to be able to follow Khaine?? Even the Chaos Space marines?

Thanks for any info given or any ideas on how this could work

Only reason I`d like to know is for CSM army going by name of "Sons of Khaine" I`m tempted to try and do.

Thanks again

Khaine is an inherently Eldar god. He's steeped in the intricate mythology and alien mindset of a very ancient xenos race. I can't see any reason why a Space Marine would know of, be interested in, or have the opportunity to learn more about Khaine - and they certainly wouldn't be accepted by the Eldar or Khaine himself. It's kind of a non-starter.

There is another wrathful, bloody-handed deity whose name begins with a K that's more suited to a human mindset, and a lot easier to venerate .

[Lord Damocles]

There's been an implication that a small group of humans may have worshipped part of the Eldar pantheon (Hellforged), but nothing dealing with Marines.


If you really wanted to make some link, you could try something like:
- Primative humans on backwater planet influenced by/exposed to Eldar pantheon 'Wow, look at these funky alien carvings... That big burning guy must be the Emperor'
- Depiction of Khaine gets mixed into worship of the Emperor 'The Emperor totally got bloody hands when he falcon punched Horus!'
- Marines turn up and recruit from the population
- Local religion gets incorporated into the Chapter lore 'The Emperor had bloody fists. We should totally get some of those'
- The Marines end up with some aspect(s) of Khaine mixed in with their traditions 'We're not related to the Crimson Fists at all '

[Theocracity]

Heh, I like your idea Lord Damocles. But as noted, it's not really worshipping Khaine - more like some telephone-game eroded version of him viewed through the lens of human faith. And I don't think a chapter would get the name Sons of Khaine - there would have to be some step of the successor chapter approval process where an Inquisitor would say 'wait a minute...' and flag them for review.

[TheDoctor]

Heh, I like your idea Lord Damocles. But as noted, it's not really worshipping Khaine - more like some telephone-game eroded version of him viewed through the lens of human faith. And I don't think a chapter would get the name Sons of Khaine - there would have to be some step of the successor chapter approval process where an Inquisitor would say 'wait a minute...' and flag them for review.

I presume they would rename themselves afterwards.

I could see it, say they had a shard of Khaine somehow come to rest at the heart of their fortress- monastery, possibly a Maiden world.
-Eastern fringe, so light of the Astronomican is weak
-In Xenology, Khaine is hinted to be one of the old ones, so hes not really an "inherently eldar god"
-Shard of Khaine influences local beliefs, and eventually the Space Marines
--Come to worship Khaine in his aspect of war, possibility to throw in an arc about "using the neutral-good warp deity to battle the evil warp deities"
---But it's not all the "kill kill kill" of Khorne

Chapter's main enemies would be Chaos and Necrons

And if you want to have a little bit of fun on the tabletop, say in Apoc
-Use Daemon Prince rules (or just the Craftworld avatar rules); as your chapter's "avatar of Khaine"

Edit: As for their relationship with the Eldar, I can see the Eldar viewing the sons of Khaine as a non-expendable tool, albeit ultimately expendable if the need is dire enough.

[Hendarion]

I'm not sure you could wake up an Avatar without sacrificing an Eldar or by using a human for that process. So fluff maybe, but using a model with rules... naaa.

[Orthodox]

I'm not sure you could wake up an Avatar without sacrificing an Eldar or by using a human for that process. So fluff maybe, but using a model with rules... naaa.

* Souls of the dead dissipate and are consumed by gods
* Eldar sequester their departed souls from the warp in infinity circuits
* instead of polluting a craftworld's infinity circuit, the corrupted souls of exarchs form a miniature infinity circuit in each suit of exarch armor.
* individual souls can be extracted from an infinity circuit to animate wraith constructs
* The collective souls of previous exarchs can subsume the wearer of a given exarch suit
* An exarch enters the Avatar's chamber alone to animate the statue, and is never seen again
* Khaine was destroyed during the fall, and exists only in splinters housed in the craftworlds

It seems extremely likely that Khaine cannot exist in the warp proper, since the souls that the eldar gods would be constituted of are now housed in the infinity circuits. The eldar's society has been destroyed and the only thing left is war. The old background of the avatar being an exarch suit inhabited by the whole craftworld's infinity circuit can still apply. The Young King sacrifice is needed to anchor the avatar in the present the way exarch suits are, instead of being distractable and sluggish like wraith constructs.

Space marines would have to wear soul stones to have any spiritual access to Khaine. That's assuming they are biologically capable of worshipping the eldar gods, which is about as likely as worshipping Gork.

The eldar languages have syllables that nobody can hear, and humans are capable of the worst pidgin version. "Khaine" can't be the actual name of that god, so "Sons of Khaine" can refer to anybody when used by humans, not specifically ther dead eldar god.

[Hendarion]

He wanted to name them "Sons of Khaine" explicitly with the reference to the Eldar God though

Also while I agree with you that a Space Marine most likely cannot wake up an Avatar, we don't know if that is really the case or not and we also clearly do not know if they would need a soul stone to access Khaine. Khaine was splintered and thrown into the physical realm. He is not inside the Warp, he is not inside the Infinity Circuit. He is inside each splinter which rests at the core chamber of a Craftworld and gets hot and enraged when the Eldar minds around him turn towards war. That's what we know for sure. Everything else would be speculation.

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

I presume they would rename themselves afterwards.

I could see it, say they had a shard of Khaine somehow come to rest at the heart of their fortress- monastery, possibly a Maiden world.

As far as I know, Avatars have only ever been described as coming to rest in Craftworlds. Neither Dark Eldars nor Exodites have access to Avatars. And I doubt that Imperial Marines could get away with living on an Xenos space station(craftworld).

Now, it might be that for some reason or another a world might have cults set up to enable human worship of the Eldar gods. It likely won't be real worship, but it could have been set up as a means to influence and control the population by the Eldar and through that way I suppose it could seep into a Marine chapter. However, it would be a pale imitation of actual Eldar worship (the cultural and mental make up are just way to different for it to really transfer) and of course the influence would have to be rather subtle to not get purged. There is after all a whole branch of the Inquisition set up to deal specifically with that kind of 'contamination'.


Edit: In fact, calling yourself the Sons of Khaine would be pretty much the same as mailing the Inquisition a memo saying: "Please come and purge us now".

[The Warmaster]

Yes, they have. But under another name.

They're called World Eaters.

[TheDungen]

Sure they could worship khaine but the one recieving their devotion would propably be another god with a similiar name.

About wakign the avatar, they could wake it usign an eldar soulstone taken from a dead eldar i suppose. On how to control it i have no idea, but if a inquisitor can bind a demon i guess a avatar is possible.