What Niche Should Possessed Chaos Marines Fill?

[Nurgling Chieftain]

I've been playing Chaos Space Marines since shortly after 3rd edition began, and in all that time (and three codexes), I've never seen fit to include Possessed Chaos Space Marines in a single army I've ever run. It's bad enough that they've tended to be overpriced and frequently a real gamble. But, even worse, they're a unit looking for a purpose. Why would I bring them at all?

If I want close combat specialists in power armor, the obvious choice is Berzerkers. Berzerkers are (or can be) Troops choices, which is huge in 5th edition. And they're quite good at tearing stuff up in close combat - better than ever, now. I could also take Chosen, which can select numerous CCW upgrades while outflanking or infiltrating. If I want to move up a bit from power armor, there's terminators. Just a few points more than Possessed, terminators come with stock power weapons, 2+/5++, and numerous options.

It seems to me that most ways to make possessed worthwhile would also make one or more of they're near-equivalents obsolete in comparison.

So, what can possessed have that Berzerkers, Chosen, and Terminators lack? For all the disappointment at rolling it, Fleet is unique, in the Chaos Codex, to Possessed, and right now so is Rending. At its simplest, replacing the random table with those two abilities would make for somewhat faster and better against armor Possessed that aren't quite the same as the other close combat specialists, while perhaps worth their points cost and not over the top.

Your suggestion?

[Mozzamanx]

I'd like to give them 2 powers: The first is chosen and paid for within the army list. The second would come from a table as it is now.

Purchasable powers could include a nice assortment of the old Daemonic Gifts- gems such as Flight, Strength, Claws, Poison, Resilience or Speed. The table would be more situational abilities like Scout, Fleet or a shooting attack.
While they should always have some inherent randomness due to their condition, an entirely random unit doesn't work in this game. Giving them a good dose of reliable brutality along with a spice of surprise would be in the right ballpark I think.

Also worth saying, I'd say Possessed deserve to be heavier combat troops than Berserkers. The Incubi to the Berserkers Genestealer: Both are legendary, but one has an edge. Put them at something approaching 30pts and it would be awesome.

[carlisimo]

Good question. It's a small part of the overall issue with Chaos - it's too big. Imagine putting all the various Imperial codices together into one big one, and trying to find a role for each unit. Crazy. But they can't easily split Chaos into several books. The sales volume isn't there, and it seems that a number of players would get quite angry about it. So we get a big, unfocused mess.

I'd probably turn them into upgrades for any power-armored Chaos Space Marine squad.

[Scammel]

It's definitely a tough one to call for the reasons given. One of my two ideas would be to allow them to pick a rule or two at the beginning of every game, somewhat similar to Ogre Maneaters but making them even more adpatable, that adaptability would hopefully give them a place in the list. Care would have to be taken that they wouldn't outshine the specialist units in whatever aspect the Possessed decide to take on or else it'd be a case of having cake and eating it.

Alternatively, they could be given two wounds base and serve as an interesting counter-point to Terminators - whilst the latter would have the advantages of firepower, power weapons and deepstrike, the former might have greater speed and more attacks at a higher strength, whilst both are roughly as durable but more suscpetible to different weapons and units compared to the other.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

...allow them to pick a rule or two at the beginning of every game...

I really like that idea, though as you mention it would be difficult to balance. It couldn't be the current list, as that would just result in power weapons almost every game!

[Baaltor]

I really like that idea, though as you mention it would be difficult to balance. It couldn't be the current list, as that would just result in power weapons almost every game!

Tzeentch forbid a unit that costs more than purifiers, has no ridiculous psychic powers(plural none-the-less), no ranged weapon, isn't scoring, and has power weapons (no even force weapons).

I know this is boring, but I'd just make them an elite version of daemons. Better armour, more deployment flexibility (DS or deploy, or maybe infiltrate or scout too?), with a solid role in armies that like lots of daemons. They could be shooty, stompy, undie-y, or fast. We could keep the random factor in by allowing a discount if you don't choose their possession type and instead roll for it during the game.

Picking two powers just before the game sounds good and useful too.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Well, it'll be interesting to see how much the legions come back in the new book. If you're being a monogod purist, redundancy isn't so bad - maybe they are a bit similar to bezerkers but emperors children can't have them.

That said, customisability is one possibility, giving them psychic powers is another, some kind of ability allowing them to shapeshift which powers they have every turn, and so on. I think the key is to make them fun and random while not being a dead weight.

[MajorWesJanson]

Personally, I would remove them as a unit entirely. I would make them a unit upgrade for existing units like Mark of the Wulfen. Say 2 models in a non cult unit can upgrade to posessed for 10 or 15 points. They get d3 or d6 extra attacks on the charge and rending but may not use special CCWs. Then let say a Word Bearers leader bump the allowance to 4 or 5 per squad. The Posessed kit has parts to represent the models, and the winged posessed could easily be used for upgrading units of Jump Infantry. Terminator kits IIRC already have some chaosy mutation bitz that can represent posessed terminators.

[Cheexsta]

Personally, I would remove them as a unit entirely. I would make them a unit upgrade for existing units like Mark of the Wulfen. Say 2 models in a non cult unit can upgrade to posessed for 10 or 15 points. They get d3 or d6 extra attacks on the charge and rending but may not use special CCWs. Then let say a Word Bearers leader bump the allowance to 4 or 5 per squad. The Posessed kit has parts to represent the models, and the winged posessed could easily be used for upgrading units of Jump Infantry. Terminator kits IIRC already have some chaosy mutation bitz that can represent posessed terminators.

This, though I'd also include them in Cult units (why not?).

[Ebon]

I really like the idea of letting the player choose/buy powers from a list like Ogre Maneaters. It wouldn't necessarily be that difficult to balance either. Just drop the points-per-model and then price the powers appropriately. So, for example, you can have your pack of Possessed with Fleet and Power Weapons but you pay a stiff points cost for it.

[DietDolphin]

Possessed aren't the only unit with this problem. Noise marines, Thousand Sons and Havoks suffer the same problem.

-Havoks need to be cheaper. Right now Oblitorators are just flat out better, they are more flexible and can move and fire, havoks don't need any gimmicks, just to be cheap as chips.

-Possessed's problems have already been noted. Right now we have berzerkers, chosen and possessed all competing for the same thing (elite CC). This could quite easily be fixed. Make Berzerkers great "slaughterers" (plenty of attacks to mow through large squads), make Chosen Elite CC fighters with power weapons and such (also more tactically flexible), and make Possessed strong and fast, give them s6 and cavalry movement (running on all fours/flying/leaping) or something to hunt MC and tanks in combat.

-Plague marines have the endurance infantry thing wrapped up. Thousand Sons need to find a new niche though I just don't know what? Short range anti armour? (like fire dragons?).

-And then there Noise marines. Even GW clearly don't know what to do with these guys. They attempt to do everything and succeed at nothing. I would make these guys our anti horde (plenty of dakka). They are not bad right now, they are just waaaay over priced. Maybe also let 1 in 3 noise marines have a blastmaster.

[Wyrmwood]

An elite and morale shattering assault and hunter-killer unit. While Chosen are the versatile elite, capable of handling bodyguard duty, with individual champions capable of killing enemy heroes, and a plethora of other duties, the Possessed should be the hunters and the line breakers. With the right abilities, they could fulfill a role that, currently, only embarked squads can truly fulfill.

[Morlu]

Personally I like the way they came across in the first heretic, they started off normal and progressively mutated through the course of the battle. you could have a unit with a similar mechanic to pain tokens but that works over time, at the end of turn 1 they gain fleet, then rending, then +1S, then +1T etc. Would add an interesting level of tactics for you and your oponent, do you throw them in straight away, afterall they are still marines or do you hold them back and "charge them up" as it were before unleashing them, equally does your oponent commit a lot of his force to take them out quickly or does he ignore them and take out higher priority targets knowing they are going to get stung later. No more randomness but quite a quirky unit.

[Dr.Clock]

Off the top of my head, I do really like the idea of faster marines. Somehow, Fleet marines are just appealing.

However, I really do think that this, of all the units in the codex, should be the most customizable in terms of the actual statline of the models and the addition of special rules.

That being said, it also seems a little odd that all of the Possessed would be the same. There could easily be room here for a Wolf-Guard style split-off option to put Possessed in other units for a little extra weight in assault. While opening up Daemonic Gifts to champions again is something I probably wouldn't want to see, allowing units to buff their assault capabilities through taking an elite unit like this is great as it forces you to make a choice about your FOC.

In sum, I'd ideally hope for three lists of upgrades, allowing one of each: movement oriented (Fleet/Flight/Beasts), stat-buffs and USRs

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

[TheLionReturns]

I have been doing my own rewrite of C:CSM and my take on possessed has been to remove the daemonkin table and just give them fleet and rending as standard. They have also had a 3 point drop each in cost and the champion comes as standard. I have also reworked the marks of chaos so they are paid for per model rather than having a fixed cost regardless of unit size. I think this fixes most major issues.

However, they still overlap a bit with berzerkers and as such my other thought was to completely rework them and instead have them as a CSM version of paladins. They would be multiple wound with lots of fancy upgrades and be very expensive. This would probably be my approach if designing a new CSM from scratch, rather than merely updating the existing one and ironing out some flaws whilst trying to remain fairly close to the original as I am at the moment.

[Kevlar]

They could start by giving them 2 ccw standard. You know, like every other CSM. You pay a huge point premium on guys who don't come with a +1 point option for an extra attack.

[blackcherry]

Adaptable combat specialists that have higher initiative than other elite slots to make them stand out.

Really, to make them stand out, they need a slightly higher stat line than a normal marine (for a point or two above the standard marine), with the option to choose upgrades for a reasonable points cost. Or else start at a higher points cost and get abilities free.

As it is, chosen are more flexible, I dont see the point of termies as they are and bezerkers can be both anti GEQ and MEQ. Their representation in the 3.5 codex was the best, but that was probably due to how cheap rending was for them and how strong it was at the time.

[Brother of the Hydra]

I like the idea of Possessed as 'Wolf Guard' like Champions.....

My take would be as they are Possessed they should get +1 A, +1 T, +1 I and 2+ armour save to represent all the Gods favour. I always like the Possessed & Dreadnought for the same reason; randomness.... it's so Chaos... yes it's not w00tle uber rules of d00m but it adds flavour... in my humble opinion.

[hazmiter]

I think str 5, fleet, rending and fearless cover bases, maybe also grant a second wound.
Initiative 5 too if it comes to it. But as a shock troop, its best off as.
Str 5, fleet, rending, furious charge and fearless.
2 attacks base, and +d3 for whole unit on charge.

[Rick Blaine]

Lots of ways to make them special.

What I'd do is make them a unit of mini-Daemon Princes (S5, WS5, 4++ and Rending would be a good start).

Then make them get stronger as the game progresses as the Daemons that power them drink up the pain and suffering. Power From Pain would work. Or maybe have a random powers table that they roll on every time they wipe out a unit.