Least favourite legion and primarch

[Jack of Blades]

I haven't read enough yet to decide about the loyalist side. But for the traitors, it's Lorgar and the Word Bearers.

Lorgar because of the choices he made and why he made them. Overall he strikes me as a butthurt 12 year old who's off in la-la land. He was unhealthily obstinate, senseless and uncaring about the consequences of his decisions and utterly naive (not in the cute way). He didn't care about humanity's well-being, he cared about worship - this is clear because of the course he took after Monarchia (ie. worshipping and spreading the taint of Chaos). It seems like he did what he did partly out of spite for the Emperor and being butthurt, the other half because of his screwed mentality that he always had. He didn't respect the Emperor's wishes, just like Magnus didn't, and he had no good reason not to. If it weren't for Lorgar thinking he knows best then he would never have been shamed at Monarchia in the first place. Overall this character strikes me as someone who was fundamentally weak and dangerously deluded being in a position of too much power and free action. He found out the horror of Chaos so instead of cooperating with the Emperor and furthering the fight against it he somehow actually believes that enslaving mankind to the abominable horror of the Chaos Gods and the Warp would be good.

Word Bearers because they went along with it - I don't care how much you like Father Lorgar, ''this is really horrible, oh well, it's the truth so we're doing it'' is still idiotic. I did notice an interesting contrast - there were those who were simply fools like Argel Tal who went along because you know, they were Word Bearers, their Primarch was doing it and it was still the truth even if it was horrible (I don't agree with that sentiment at all but I can see their lawful stupid ''truth is what matters'' point of view) - and then there were those like Xaphen who strike me as being evil, fully understanding the horror they would bring about and actually believing it was not only the truth but good and that they were righteous etc. a really disgusting attitude. Xaphen after he converted to Chaos struck me as quite disturbing, the kind of person you really want to avoid. Not even Erebus despite an architect of Lorgar's turn to Chaos seemed as vile as Xaphen and Lorgar since Erebus doesn't seem to be as pretentious as those two. Erebus is confident, knows what he's doing and why, making no pretense about it, while Lorgar and Xaphen are like really spoiled kids failing at the life lesson that they're not always right.

The First Heretic is the only Horus Heresy novel I've read so far (will start reading them again ASAP and return with more comments it was a really cool and well-designed read) but I don't think I'll find anything more pathetic than Lorgar and the Word Bearers.

[SunTzu]

Least Favourite Loyalist Primarch: Ferrus Manus. It's just the name, it's even stupider than Lion El'Jonson. Iron Man of the Iron Hands. Ferrus Manus. <Monty Python> Biggus Dickus. Biggus... Dickus. </Monty Python> I just can't get past that.

Least Favourite Loyalist Legion: Ultramarines. "We must do everything by the Codex! Except on those rare occasions where the Codex is too rigid and inflexible which happens in every combat. We never do anything by the Codex!" Ugh... tedious and irritating.

Least Favourite Traitor Primarch: Perturabo. Did he actually... like... do anything? Ever?

Least Favourite Traitor Legion: Iron Warriors. See above. Also: "We're made of Iron! Wooooooooo!"

[Jack of Blades]

Will it ever be made clear why the Iron Warriors betrayed the Emperor? because as of now I don't get it. They were feeling a bit sulky because of all the siege warfare? what do they think ''normal'' warfare is? why didn't they just do something that wasn't siege warfare? how didn't they know it was Horus who gave them all the siege warfare if that was the case and not the Emperor (and again why didn't they just do their own thing if it was Horus or make a request if it was the Emperor)? he destroyed a world, big deal, the Emperor himself doesn't seem to care what goes on in the Imperium's worlds if all will be good in the end and if he's as logical and coldly calculating as he's said to be shouldn't he see the point that if you've made a wrong, making another one won't make it right? it doesn't come off as him being ''forced'' into joining Horus (which is what it seems like the intention is), it just appears like Perturabo had a crack stockpile he wasn't telling anyone about. ''Oh no I've made a mistake, I've got to ruin the galaxy!'' I mean he had to smoke some heavy stuff to come to a conclusion like that. And these guys are supposed to be intellectually superior to humans?

[jareddm3]

Least Favourite Loyalist Primarch: Ferrus Manus. It's just the name, it's even stupider than Lion El'Jonson. Iron Man of the Iron Hands. Ferrus Manus. <Monty Python> Biggus Dickus. Biggus... Dickus. </Monty Python> I just can't get past that.

Except that his name doesn't mean Iron Man. Ferrus Manus means Iron Hands. So his legion is named after himself.

As for my least favorite, I have to say The Khan. I'm sure he'll eventually be better detailed, but at the moment he's very much the least interesting primarch in my opinion.

I don't really have a least favorite legion, they all have interesting elements to them that I can appreciate.

[Jack of Blades]

I don't really have a least favorite legion, they all have interesting elements to them that I can appreciate.

Really? because when I say least favourite legion, I don't mean the one you find the least interesting. I mean the one you like the least. I find the Word Bearers interesting, hell I'd like to read about any legion or any faction in 40k. I like the setting. But, if I was to pick the legions like candy or like party members, the Word Bearers would be on the bottom.

[totgeboren]

About the WB. What they went through was to at first killed half their own people becuase a god-like being told them their religion was false, then go on a crusade across the stars, curiously finding their own old religion on dozens of worlds, and killing the people of those worlds too. However, they at least tried restoring the worlds by relying on the truth the god-like being provided them with, and making the people of the worlds love them instead of fear them. And at the end of all this, having produced the most loyal and stable worlds of all your brothers, to hear that you are an utter failure, and to add insult to injury, you also discover that your old religion was actually true! Not only that the god-like being had deliberatly decived you, but that your previous culture was right all along. All those millions of lives lost, for a lie. I can understand how that could unhinge someone.
But not Guilliman or his legion of course, the men of stone, who didn't seem to have much problems shedding their veneer of care for humanity when tasked with genocide of the population of one of the most loyal worlds in the Imperium. Just to make a point.

But anyway, Khan simply has so little backstory, and what has been said isn't really all that interesting. I will be curious as to how they develop him, becuase as it is now, he is incredibly 2d. But that might not be what the OP had in mind. It's a cointoss between Guilliman and Pertuabo. None of them are very likable or relateable, just efficient.

[Jack of Blades]

About the WB. What they went through was to at first killed half their own people becuase a god-like being told them their religion was false, then go on a crusade across the stars, curiously finding their own old religion on dozens of worlds, and killing the people of those worlds too. However, they at least tried restoring the worlds by relying on the truth the god-like being provided them with, and making the people of the worlds love them instead of fear them. And at the end of all this, having produced the most loyal and stable worlds of all your brothers, to hear that you are an utter failure, and to add insult to injury, you also discover that your old religion was actually true! Not only that the god-like being had deliberatly decived you, but that your previous culture was right all along. All those millions of lives lost, for a lie. I can understand how that could unhinge someone.
But not Guilliman or his legion of course, the men of stone, who didn't seem to have much problems shedding their veneer of care for humanity when tasked with genocide of the population of one of the most loyal worlds in the Imperium. Just to make a point.

Yep, I know this point of view, if you've read the 6th edition DE army book I think it's similar - it reads more like propaganda that omits inconvenient details and such than a historical account . Don't consider this an argument, I just want to counter the propaganda:

1. About their religion being false - it is false if they believe it is. It becomes true because they believe it's true. Superstition feeds Chaos. How could the Emperor tell them that ''these beings exist, but you should think that they don't''? his strategy was the only feasible way he could handle them. The only fault the Emperor can be accused of in this matter is to not take careful steps against the primarchs becoming too curious about if there really were no gods and also why the Emperor said there were no gods. He should've incorporated the imperial truth into them like their own spines, but he didn't.

2. They did make the people love instead of fear them but they were simultaneously creating a much more dangerous breeding ground for Chaos than the other legions were. A planet where the imperial truth is taken for granted by everyone would be like a reverse black hole against Chaos. You could say that the Word Bearers' policy made worlds more content in the short term but lead to an increasing galactic danger in the long term.

3. It's true, but that's like discovering your nightmares were true. Why should you follow it just because it's true? why don't you consult the Emperor on his seemingly weird policy of deceit unless you're truly so arrogant to think the Emperor doesn't know of the gods? maybe the Emperor not only knows of the gods but knows what they'd to do the whole material universe and every living creature in it if they could, knows how malevolent those entities are? The Emperor didn't tell them the truth about the imperial truth but they should've trusted him regardlessly, you don't see the loyalist legions getting pissed off just because the Emperor had a plan to fight Chaos. The Word Bearers didn't consider the reason, the why, they just threw a tantrum:

''Yes son I did deceive you but it's for the good of the galaxy, I want to-''
''YOU LIED TO ME DADDY! you didn't tell me about these sacrifice-demanding, torturing, alien, malevolent, manipulative, super-cool things in this awesome alternate place!''
''Son, it's because-''
''NO daddy I don't like you anymore, I'm moving in to the cool things. You... *sniff* you're such a bastard, you don't deserve me or anything! I HATE YOU!''

Hmm... similar to Anakin when you think about it.

4. They weren't tasked with genocide. They were tasked with evacuating everyone in the city of Monarchia and level it after they had done so, which they did. Even if they don't know the reason behind the imperial truth, can't they simply trust in the Emperor?

Hehe the Horus Heresy is so cool.

[Dreadlordpaul]

My least favourite primarch is king smurf himself as well hes just a goody goody two shoes although this spot is closely contested by the emporer himself as hes such a **** and tbh i wish both of these had died horriable painful deaths at the hands of the dark eldar/ chaos.

my least favourite legion is the ultramarines for the same reasons above

[Lupe]

Least favorite legion: Blood Angels because there is currently nothing particularly breathtaking about the Legion as a whole. They're stated to be honorable, fierce and level-headed, but we just don't see anything of the sort in the 30K setting. I know, Fear to Tread is supposed to be their spotlight, and it might change my perspective when I read it, but, based on what we have so far... least favorites. What the Chapter evolves into over the next 10 thousand years, however is a far more interesting fighting force altogether...

Least favorite primarch: Mortarion so far. For some reason, the image I have about him is very similar to a grumpy old man with absurd standards and outdated concepts. It also doesn't help that he's not been given that much screen time, and even the Death Guard book was focused on the bloody loyalist elements. In all fairness, though, I should mention that I like the idea of him bargaining his soul to Nurgle in exchange for saving his legion from excruciating pain. The problem is that there's next to nothing resembling character development that would justify him joining Horus...

[Ozeryk]

Up till now I think that Fulgrim must have been the dumbest of the all Primarchs. And what happened to his Marines over the last 10000 seems fitting . . . . Porn Marines.
The most sinister Chaos Space Marines are the Word Bearers.

[jareddm3]

Really? because when I say least favourite legion, I don't mean the one you find the least interesting. I mean the one you like the least. I find the Word Bearers interesting, hell I'd like to read about any legion or any faction in 40k. I like the setting. But, if I was to pick the legions like candy or like party members, the Word Bearers would be on the bottom.

In that case I'm gonna go with the Space Wolves. At least the 40k interpretation of them. While lots of chapters disrespect authority and the Imperium, Black Templars and Dark Angels being two that come to mind, the way the Space Wolves go about it really irks me. It's the lack of tact that everyone seems to want to push into them that turns me off from them.

[loveless]

Will it ever be made clear why the Iron Warriors betrayed the Emperor? because as of now I don't get it. They were feeling a bit sulky because of all the siege warfare? what do they think ''normal'' warfare is? why didn't they just do something that wasn't siege warfare? how didn't they know it was Horus who gave them all the siege warfare if that was the case and not the Emperor (and again why didn't they just do their own thing if it was Horus or make a request if it was the Emperor)? he destroyed a world, big deal, the Emperor himself doesn't seem to care what goes on in the Imperium's worlds if all will be good in the end and if he's as logical and coldly calculating as he's said to be shouldn't he see the point that if you've made a wrong, making another one won't make it right? it doesn't come off as him being ''forced'' into joining Horus (which is what it seems like the intention is), it just appears like Perturabo had a crack stockpile he wasn't telling anyone about. ''Oh no I've made a mistake, I've got to ruin the galaxy!'' I mean he had to smoke some heavy stuff to come to a conclusion like that. And these guys are supposed to be intellectually superior to humans?

Didn't Perturabo join up with Horus to effectively screw Rogal Dorn? I always got the feeling that Perturabo was just going to join whatever side Dorn wasn't on in the event of a schism.

[Lord_Crull]

But not Guilliman or his legion of course, the men of stone, who didn't seem to have much problems shedding their veneer of care for humanity when tasked with genocide of the population of one of the most loyal worlds in the Imperium. Just to make a point.

Well it was not actually genocide, but Know No Fear reveals that they actually did not enjoy doing that to Monarchia and Guilliman felt uncomfortable doing it.

[Lupe]

Didn't Perturabo join up with Horus to effectively screw Rogal Dorn? I always got the feeling that Perturabo was just going to join whatever side Dorn wasn't on in the event of a schism.

It's implied in the Iron Warriors IA that there were actually two potential reasons for their choice.

First would be that Horus was the only primarch who took Perturabo seriously (or showed any sign of friendship towards him, I can't recall the exact wording).
The second was that they'd just committed genocide against their own homeworld, and felt that the Imperium would brand them as traitors anyway.

[stormblade]

Perturabo[/B]. Did he actually... like... do anything? Ever?

Well, there was this sige of Terra thingy he kind of had a hand in...

[SunTzu]

Well, there was this sige of Terra thingy he kind of had a hand in...

Ah yes! The Siege of Terra, where Rogal Dorn levelled mountains to create a defensible fortress, Sanguinius slew Bloodthirsters then sacrificed himself so the Emperor might live, Horus killed his brother and reached the brink of gaining dominion over the galaxy, Jaghatai Khan fought an incredible mobile defence to protect the Emperor's Palace, Fulgrim organised rape and torture on a planetary scale, Angron led the assault on the breach... and Perturabo was... there. Doing... siege-y stuff. Probably.

Yawn, basically. The Lexicanum article lists him as a commander and... that's it. If he did anything, nobody noticed, or thought it worth mentioning. He was just... there.

[stormblade]

Being commander sounds rather importaint, and then there was the Iron Cage, Hrud extermination campaigns and probably something else.
I guess they need to cover him a bit more in the series. I recall thinking of Kurze as being a seconed rate batman knock-off but now everybody seem to think he's cool. Not that I ever payed that much attention to 30k before though.

[SunTzu]

He's listed as a commander, alongside several others, all of whom did something interesting.

But, yeah, you're right - maybe when Perturabo features more he'll be brought to life (I never used to think much of Lorgar, either, until The First Heretic and especially Aurelian; and Jaghatai Khan is also fairly faceless at the moment, and likewise I don't have much interest in him).

[Lupe]

Beautiful irony at work here, SunTzu.

The Iron Warriors were pretty much away from the spotlight and marginalized by the other legions. Take a wild guess what Black Library does to them in the Heresy series

[Forthlegion]

Least favorite Legion: Space Wolves. Their aesthetics, speech, and over all feel just don't do it for me.

Least favorite Primarch: The Alpha twins, and they win this title while running away with it. A pair of Primarchs so completely forgettable that they can blend in with their rank and file marines. Nothing in their feature novel Legion depicted either of the two as regal, powerful, charismatic, and more importantly memorable. That's all well and good for Alpha Legion brothers, but for a Primarch I simply need more.