Least favourite legion and primarch

[MooseOnTheLoose]

Least Favourite Loyalist Legion: Ultramarines. I just don't find anything the Legion/Chapter has done to be that great or well written. I just get this vibe from them "we sat this one out pretty much so we outnumber you all but we will be nice and create parity even though ultimately all our fancy colours will join us in our new centre of mankind should the need arise" then "oh snap nids, good luck everyone else were being attacked and it isn't pretty!"

Least Favourite Loyalist Primarch: Leman Russ. I just don't relate too him as someone I would want to follow into battle, or even would think he could understand what he was doing. He seems like the brother who is a bit slow and just a loose cannon... "Hey Russ he just called your momma fat" as he goes full out war without even taking a second to think.

Least Favourite Traitor Legion: Emperor's Children. I didn't like the arrogance in general with the way they are described. They come across a pretty boys too me, and then become a bunch of perverts. They remind me of a bunch of sleezey guys in a bar that just go around trying to get in any chicks pants.

Least Favourite Traitor Primarch: Alpharious. You lead a pretty cool described and operated legion, with real tactics and thought yet you and your twin come across like a lesser clan Skaven warlord, cowardly and forgettable compared to well really every other Primarch.

[SunTzu]

Except that his name doesn't mean Iron Man. Ferrus Manus means Iron Hands. So his legion is named after himself.

Damn, you're right. There was me thinking "Manus" as in "man", when it's really as in "maniples", "manipulation", "manicure", "manuscript" etc. My etymology skills failed me!!!!

...still a stupid name.

[Stonerhino]

Least Favourite Loyalist Primarch: Leman Russ. I just don't relate too him as someone I would want to follow into battle, or even would think he could understand what he was doing. He seems like the brother who is a bit slow and just a loose cannon... "Hey Russ he just called your momma fat" as he goes full out war without even taking a second to think.

I'm not attacking your opinion. Because if you base it off of the HH series it's understandable.

But the problem is that he will always be so had to write. At least without making the biggest Mary Sue next to the Emperor. His fluff has to much "Most" in it to write and give him any real charater faults. For example:

Leman Russ was the most ferocious of the Primarchs, a giant even among the Emperor's chosen, a great brawling warrior. Fiercely loyal to his friends and a terror to his enemies. He was said to be the most headstrong of the Primarchs but was undoughtly one of the most brilliant military commanders in an age of great generals.

And:

Over the following decades Leman Russ led the Space Wolves in many wars throughout the galaxy, proving to to be one of the most daring and successful of the Emperor's generals.

Combine that with the Space Wolves not being center stage for the HH outside of Prospero and it makes sence as to why you will not see a whole lot about him.

[The Red Pilgrim]

Least Favorite Legion: It's got to be the Alpha Legion, easily. They just don't make any sense to me. I mean, they fight wars via manipulation and subterfuge - but primarily do it with human agents. Rarely do they actually do something themselves, or make any use of their superhuman abilities. They just seem like a confused Legion to me; like they're just not sure what they're supposed to be. This theme seems to continue now, regarding their loyalties.

Least Favorite Primarch: Mortarion - for many of the reasons Lupe already covered, and the fact that when he is allowed some "screen time", he always comes across as a bit of a self-righteous tool.

[DietDolphin]

Ah yes! The Siege of Terra, where Rogal Dorn levelled mountains to create a defensible fortress, Sanguinius slew Bloodthirsters then sacrificed himself so the Emperor might live, Horus killed his brother and reached the brink of gaining dominion over the galaxy, Jaghatai Khan fought an incredible mobile defence to protect the Emperor's Palace, Fulgrim organised rape and torture on a planetary scale, Angron led the assault on the breach... and Perturabo was... there. Doing... siege-y stuff. Probably.

Yawn, basically. The Lexicanum article lists him as a commander and... that's it. If he did anything, nobody noticed, or thought it worth mentioning. He was just... there.

But thats it! you've just listed why he turned traitor. He was the guy doing all the tough jobs, fighting in the mud for months at a times, where everyone else is getting all the glory. They got no recognition for anything. I don't know if you've been in the same situation before but having someone else get all the credit for your hard work really stings, and I can imagine after 200+ years of being a calculated tactician, and having some moronic meathead like Russ come along and be the glorious one will take it's told. Other than Magnus, Perturabo is the only primarch who turned that I can actually believe, he turned because of a human emotion that we can all relate to to some degree, envy... It's a lot more understandable than "Evil Gods? doesn't matter, there still gods so worship them" or "You can stop chaos by joining them, that'll work" or my favourite "the sword told me to".

By the way I'm pretty sure Horus put Perturabo in charge of the entire Siege of Terra, acknowledging he was the only person who could out do Dorn in Siege warfare.

Also for those people complaining about Ferrus Manus's name, his legion is named after him like how Horus had the Sons of Horus.

[Mikial]

First off, the entire Horus Heresy series is excellent. I have played 40k since Rogue Trader and I love the story and the setting. It is really great to get back to the very beginning of the Imperium and understand so much of the story and background. It has been a long time coming for GW to do this, but it is a home run as far as I'm concerned.

As for the legions and Primarchs, I can't really say who my faves or least faves are except to say that I am saddened by what the traitors did. The Emperor was an incredible and amazing being. A true creature of light and power. I would certainly follow him. And yet, he was crippled, his dream was broken, and the Imperium essentially fell into a dark age of superstition and repression just to survive. If not for the Heresy, it would have risen and the unbroken legions would have enforced mankind's supremacy in the galaxy, although the coming of the Tyranids would certainly have presented the same problem it does in the 41st M.

Of the traitors, the Word Bearers and Lorgar carry the greatest burden of guilt. Lorgar is so in love with his own wisdom that he sees everyone else as nothing more than a tool. Horus and his legion are certainly arrogant and self-serving enough to warrant the title of least liked, but Horus again is really just a dupe to Lorgar and his mob. Angron is little more than an animal and the World Eaters aren't much better.

Of the loyalists, El Johnson is the most clueless and he has the biggest ego and need to protect his supremacy by pushing anyone he sees as any kind of a threat away and exiling them back to Caliban.

Just my perspective.

[Sir_Turalyon]

Least favorite Primarch - Rogal Dorn, easily, for wussy moods switching between unreasonable stubborness and "I have been bad boy, i need to be punished, where is my pain glove?" whining. Not to mention vanity and buffonade that caused two Primarchs to side with Horus, matching Guillmans' record - but while Alpharius and Logarn turned from the Emperor because they couldn't match Guilmans results and standing, Perturabo and Night Haunter turned because they Dorns people skills fed them up this much. Losing most of his chapter in stuborn attempt to prove a point is a cherry on the top.

Guillman was probably worse, showing up after Heresy on loyalist side with suspitiously full-strength Legion, making himself a new Warmaster then spliting the Legions and Army so that no one but him could vield the power to start a new Heresy. But at least he did it with some style.

or my favourite "the sword told me to".

That's the weak BL version, the actual background "I went to party at Horus' place to parley with him and woke up under the table next morning, with hangover and extra tentacles; not sure what exactly happened " was much better.

[Freak Ona Leash]

That's the weak BL version, the actual background "I went to party at Horus' place to parley with him and woke up under the table next morning, with hangover and extra tentacles; not sure what exactly happened " was much better.

BL background is actual background And how is that better, it sounds just as nonsensical if not moreso.

Anyways, least favorite Traitor Legion: Emperor's Children. Their focus on arrogance, hierarchy and authoritarian idiocy combined with their transformation into over-sensualized freaks makes them the least appealing faction in 40k as a whole, except maybe the Eldar. I'm not quite sure how they ever got a reputation for "perfection", because their focus on hierarchy and arrogance literally sounds like the common internet fanboy criticisms for the Ultramarines, except its outright stated in the background and moreover seems the central theme of their Legion. Also, Fulgrim is a loser.

Worst Loyalist Legion: Dark Angels. Something something, no one cares about your imbecilic family issues, oh and the Lion is a cock.

[Reivax26]

Least favorite loyal legion: Dark Angels. Bleeping Traitors.
Least favorite loyal primarch: Lion'el Johnson. Bleeping Traitor.
Least favorite chaos legion: Iron Warriors. They can defend fortresses or take them. Wow thats impressive.
Least favorite chaos primarch: Perturabo. Most 40k players don't even know who this guy is and unless you have read a lot of books about Chaos from the 40k novels, nobody cares LOL

[TheDungen]

First of i havent read the HH series all i know about the primarchs come from the Index Astartes articles in WD.

Least Favourite Loyalist Primarch: Roboute Guillman. the onlu fun stuff with him is the implication that he intended to stay out of the heresy and join up with the winner. He's otherwise always described as perfect in every possible way. He jsut shows up not even having done anything in the heresy (apart from fighting the alpha legion) and decides that he for some reason i allowed to reorganise the space marines. I hate that giy so much.

Least favourite loyalist legion: The iron hands are pretty boring, also the salamanders. I also dislie the sterotype vikings that the spaceworlfs are, as a swede i see how much bette rthey could've been if anyone at GW actually knew anythign about vikings and northern mythology (beside reading marvels thor cause thats what it feels like now). But i'l go with Ultramarines again, they're alot better sicne they added the classic elements but they're still boring and generic.

Least favourite traitor primarch: Angron, i find khorne boring in general and "oh i'm so damn angry" angron just doesnt do anything for me.

Least favourite traitor legion: Luna Wolves / Sons of Horus / Black Legion. Hello Ultramarines of the chaos side. And last chaos codex would have us belive that most other legions marines had defected to which legion? oh black legion you say? what a suprise!

Hey GW tell us again why we all should play Ultramarines and Black Legion!

Aside from that i feel that the rubric of Ahriman made the thousand sons pretty boring. But their story up to that point is so great so i'll forgive them. Oh and World eaters isnt that fun either same as their primarch.

That said its a very well writtne setting and i disagree with GWs decision to make the HH series, i prefered when they didnt tell us everything.

[Lord_Crull]

Least Favourite Loyalist Legion: Ultramarines. I just don't find anything the Legion/Chapter has done to be that great or well written. I just get this vibe from them "we sat this one out pretty much so we outnumber you all but we will be nice and create parity even though ultimately all our fancy colours will join us in our new centre of mankind should the need arise" then "oh snap nids, good luck everyone else were being attacked and it isn't pretty!"

Guillman was probably worse, showing up after Heresy on loyalist side with suspitiously full-strength Legion, making himself a new Warmaster then spliting the Legions and Army so that no one but him could vield the power to start a new Heresy. But at least he did it with some style.

Perhaps you would be more interested as GW seems to be retconning this. As of Know No Fear, the Ultramarines took massive losses at Calth and lost practically their entire fleet. A D-B’s upcoming novel Betrayer will feature them also fighting against more Word Bearers and World Eaters with statements from various authors on how the Ultramarines will be fighting in more battles during the Heresy and be more involved than just Calth.

[TheDungen]

And the increased the ultramarines vanilla stutus even more. the bit about not choosing sides was the only intresting fluff they had. a character's (or legion's) most intresting sides is his weaknesses. The ultramarines are always described as perfect so they're just plain boring.

[MvS]

Lorgar is so in love with his own wisdom that he sees everyone else as nothing more than a tool. Horus and his legion are certainly arrogant and self-serving enough to warrant the title of least liked, but Horus again is really just a dupe to Lorgar and his mob.

I would generally agree with your first point about Lorgar, but I think it's a shame that Horus hasn't been expanded upon better. He should be 'just' a dupe. He should be one of the greatest Primarchs, wise and incredible in almost every sense, and his fall should be his own doing. We should be able to root for him even while disagreeing with him.

I mean he doesn't come across as a complete dupe to Erebus in the novels, but then again his fall doesn't seem enough of an act of personal choice and power, like he fundamentally disagrees with the Emperor - that he genuinely believes that the Emperor is a hypocrite who has betrayed his sons - and also genuinely wants to bring his father down for what he sees as the good of mankind. Horus should very obviously believe from the outset that he can master the powers that the Emperor so freely uses while also condemning (the Warp / Chaos).

I know that this is what's been said, but it hasn't been shown enough I think.

Horus Lupercal, the first and greatest Warmaster of Chaos, shouldn't come across as anyone's dupe. Ever.

[blackcherry]

Thats what I felt as well. Enough wasn't made of Horus' fall, the only part of the series that had you empathising with him was the end of the first book. Otherwise its sort of just been 'oh that Horus guy looks sort of evil, now hes Chaos lol'.

Perhaps it will be covered in more detail again later on in the series, but for something that should have been a key event in the Heresy, it was covered far too quickly. We never got to know Horus, so we can't really empathise with him and his views.

Least favourite legion and primarch? Probably Khan and the White Scars, just because theres not much really written about them and they seem a very generic legion with no real distinguishing traits. Ditto the Iron Hands. Hopefully they will be covered more.

[Iron_Lord]

Least favorite loyal legion: Dark Angels. Bleeping Traitors.
Least favorite loyal primarch: Lion'el Johnson. Bleeping Traitor.

One of the Lion's flaws centre about being "too loyal" - he's so invested in the concept of the Emperor as head of the Imperium, that his plan is if the Emperor dies, to destroy the Imperium on an "If he isn't alive to rule it no-one gets to rule it." attitude.

[TheDungen]

No one man except the emperor should hold that kind of power? that seems reasonable, and he gets his wish the imperium is ruled by a council the high lords of terra.

[Sqallum]

I haven't read enough yet to decide about the loyalist side. But for the traitors, it's Lorgar and the Word Bearers.

Lorgar because of the choices he made and why he made them. Overall he strikes me as a butthurt 12 year old who's off in la-la land. He was unhealthily obstinate, senseless and uncaring about the consequences of his decisions and utterly naive (not in the cute way). He didn't care about humanity's well-being, he cared about worship - this is clear because of the course he took after Monarchia (ie. worshipping and spreading the taint of Chaos). It seems like he did what he did partly out of spite for the Emperor and being butthurt, the other half because of his screwed mentality that he always had. He didn't respect the Emperor's wishes, just like Magnus didn't, and he had no good reason not to. If it weren't for Lorgar thinking he knows best then he would never have been shamed at Monarchia in the first place. Overall this character strikes me as someone who was fundamentally weak and dangerously deluded being in a position of too much power and free action. He found out the horror of Chaos so instead of cooperating with the Emperor and furthering the fight against it he somehow actually believes that enslaving mankind to the abominable horror of the Chaos Gods and the Warp would be good.

This made me explode with laughter. He really is such a derp. And I LIKE the WB, but I must admit, I hate Lorgar

Word Bearers because they went along with it - I don't care how much you like Father Lorgar, ''this is really horrible, oh well, it's the truth so we're doing it'' is still idiotic. I did notice an interesting contrast - there were those who were simply fools like Argel Tal who went along because you know, they were Word Bearers, their Primarch was doing it and it was still the truth even if it was horrible (I don't agree with that sentiment at all but I can see their lawful stupid ''truth is what matters'' point of view) - and then there were those like Xaphen who strike me as being evil, fully understanding the horror they would bring about and actually believing it was not only the truth but good and that they were righteous etc. a really disgusting attitude. Xaphen after he converted to Chaos struck me as quite disturbing, the kind of person you really want to avoid. Not even Erebus despite an architect of Lorgar's turn to Chaos seemed as vile as Xaphen and Lorgar since Erebus doesn't seem to be as pretentious as those two. Erebus is confident, knows what he's doing and why, making no pretense about it, while Lorgar and Xaphen are like really spoiled kids failing at the life lesson that they're not always right.

The First Heretic is the only Horus Heresy novel I've read so far (will start reading them again ASAP and return with more comments it was a really cool and well-designed read) but I don't think I'll find anything more pathetic than Lorgar and the Word Bearers.

I agree with pretty much everything you've said.... but I hate the EC more. I REALLLY hate the EC.

BTW, SunTzu, I know. What the hell did Perturabo DO? Hope Angel Exterminatus will show us what they did when they lounged around in their castles all day

[Forthlegion]

BTW, SunTzu, I know. What the hell did Perturabo DO? Hope Angel Exterminatus will show us what they did when they lounged around in their castles all day

When you say "lounged around" you actually mean "were constantly warring & crusading which stretched themselves painfully thin as they continued storming and conquering the most imposing fortresses and worlds in the Galaxy."

No big deal, common misconception.

[Bonzai]

Primarch and Legion in the HH series I like least? The Emperor's Children. "Fulgrim" is pretty solidly on the least favorite of the novels, a close second being Prospero Burns. The whole legion was described as pretty much already being well on the road to corruption, and it made their fall pretty much a forgone conclusion. The entire legion is described as being petty, shallow, and aside from Tarvitz, completely unsympathetic. Fulgrim is no better. I found it sad that False Gods, and Galaxy Burns portrayed them better than their own novel.

The "present" day legion I like the least, are the Ultramarines. They dont seem as bad while thier primarch was around, but maybe its because they have other legions to contrast with. However, the modern versions self agrandizement is nearly insufferable. If you didnt know better, you would think that the whole imperium thing was their idea. They so rigidly adhere to the codex, that adaptability and innovation are actually punished.

[Grubnar]

Fulgrim and his Emperor's Children.

Everyone else has at least one good thing about them.