1) if a chaos unit contains a bsb with the "banner of rage" and the character leaves the unit, are they still effected by frenzy?
the banner says the unit can never lose their frenzy even if beaten in combat
2) what about a gore/doombull in a unit and they leave, does the unit still have frenzy until they are beaten in combat?
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So pretty much the same old thing is it?
1. No.
2. No.
Why? You are not considered in the unit or "any unit they have joined" unless you are actually in the unit. When you leave that state ceases to be as do any rules granted from it.
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I'd have to say yes to both. Since the rules for Frenzy state that you only lose Frenzy once beaten in combat, and there is no stipulation on either of those items that they only retain Frenzy while the said Character or Banner are in the unit.
Firstly, The wording for banner of rages states "the unit with this banner....." if the unit no longer has the banner then no it does not have frenzy anymore.
Secondly, really????
Read the rules for frenzy. Yes, really.
I'd agree with Iraf, it also says under Special Rules in the Character section "On the other hand, many spells and magic items bestow special rules and other effects on units. In this case, everyone (including the character) in the combined unit will be affected."
The only notion that makes mention of a character losing a special rule when he leaves a unit is for spells only earlier in the Character section, not from magical items that affect units.
But, Iraf... it isn't so much that the Frenzy is being lost in the sense that they were beaten in combat, but that the source of their Frenzy is now gone so they no longer have it. If one were to ask 'Why does this unit have Frenzy?' there should be an immediate and present answer (the most common is "It's one of their special rules."). However, if the Battle Standard with the Banner of Rage wanders off or dies, there is no longer a source for the special rule. Since they don't have Frenzy granted from anything, they no longer have it. One could easily argue that the paragraph you are reading presupposes that the unit has Frenzy as one of their special rules in their Bestiary (as every other special rule does).
Besides, by your logic, Hysterical Frenzy is a permenant effect except for the wounds inflicted. I find this ludicrous.
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Mmm I'm inclined to agree with Iraf for the Banner of Rage question actually.
Yes normally magic items give you bonuses that you would lose when the magic item disappears (from it leaving the unit, having charges used, being destroyed, etc). Either way, "not being affected by rule X that you were previously affected by" is the very definition of "losing rule X".
In this case, rule X explicitly states that it cannot be lost. So, as written, the Frenzy from the Banner of Rage can never be lost (as it states in its rules), even if
- the unit is defeated in combat
- the banner leaves the unit
- the model bearing the banner is killed
- the banner is destroyed by Vaul's Unmaking
I don't know about the second question.
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That is my interpretation of the rules for Frenzy. The Losing Frenzy paragraph on page 70 is very clear that they retain Frenzy for the entire game unless beaten in combat. There is no difference between a unit who has Frenzy as an inherent ability or one granted from a spell or item. Frenzy is Frenzy, and must follow the rules for Frenzy on page 70.Originally Posted by AMWOOD co
So you can just run your BSB around and give your whole army frenzy? Cheese.
I wish I could, my VC dont have access to that banner
By RAW, that certainly works.
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So if what you're saying is true, I cold take a BSB with the Banner of Eternal Flame and have him join each unit in my army, one at a time, to give all of them flaming attacks for the entire game? The losing Frenzy rule states "Unlike other special rules, Frenzy can be lost as the game goes on." That means it will also work for the Strider Standard, Wailing Banner, and Razor Standard just to name the ones from the BRB.
Sometimes people should just look at how the rules are supposed to be played. It is clear that this isn't the intent of the rule and anyone playing as such should quit playing. It is these kind of rules lawyers that makes me sad to be associated with the game.
I'm new here, but I thought I'd chime in (forgive me if I'm wrong), but the point of the losing Frenzy section on page 70 (Side Note: Are we allowed to quote rules in relevant discussions?) is making the point that unlike other special rules you can lose it by losing combat. That does not override the basic premise that a magic item, banner, equipment, whatever is what is conferring the special rule.
So you have the "normal" situation:
-Character holding Item A confers Special Rule X to the Unit 1.
-Character holding Item A leaves the Unit 1.
-Unit 1 loses Special Rule X.
-Character joins Unit 2.
-Unit 2 now has Special Rule X.
With Frenzy this can change:
-Character holding Item A confers Frenzy to the Unit 1.
-Unit 1 loses combat -> Frenzy is lost as per Losing Frenzy on page 70 of BRB. (*)
-Character holding Item A leaves the Unit 1.
-Unit 1 would lose Frenzy at this point, but had already lost it so nothing else happens. (*)
-Character joins Unit 2.
-Unit 2 now has Frenzy until beaten in combat or the character leaves the unit.
Frenzy is different in that you can also lose it sooner by losing combat. The note on banner of rage about not losing frezny if you are beaten in combat is specifically overriding the Losing Frenzy paragraph on page 70, making it just like every other special rule (you only lose it if nullified by magic or the source is removed) in which case you would adjust the steps marked with a (*), leaving you with the "normal" situation.
No Hellstorm, to just about everything you just said. It works specifically for Frenzy, as Frenzy says the only way it can be lost. I feel you are taking the RAW for Frenzy and adding them to every other special ability, which is absurd.
And this isn't rules lawyering, or loophole playing. It's the actual rules for Frenzy.
And your comments that people like me make you sad to be associated makes me wonder why you're associated with the game at all. Don't be associated if such a simple disagreement gets you annoyed. In fact, I wish you'd quit playing if this type of conversation gets your panties all in knots.
Last edited by Iraf; 02-05-2012 at 17:47.
Amem to that brother....
All of the rules that relate to "losing Frenzy" tell you how you can lose it sooner (losing combat). When you have a further rule that negates that by saying you don't lose it to losing combat then you have the normal rules for all special rules.
Losing combat is not the "only" way to lose Frenzy. It is the only way to lose it early.
I agreeing with Amwood. The banner states that The unit with this banner has the Frenzy special rule. When the banner is no longer in the unit, the unit does not have frenzy. They do not lose frenzy unless the banner leaves the unit. When the banner is not in the unit. It is not giving the Frenzy special rule so the unit doesnt have frenzy.
If you think the unit still has frenzy even tho the banner is no longer in the unit, then all the other banner/items/spells would work the same way. The Razor banner states models in the unit wiht the banner have AP special rule. If the banner leaves then then unit still has the rule., (not), I can go on and on.
The banner needs to be in the unit to give the special rule. Unless it states a distance like the banner of the gods where all friendly units within 6" are stubborn
The FAQ states with spells.
Q: If a Wizard casts a spell that targets himself, or himself and his
unit, and then leaves the unit, will the spell remain on both the
Wizard and the unit? (p97)
A: No, once the Wizard has left the unit it will only target him.
If he subsequently joins another unit, or rejoins the unit he has
left, while the spell is still in play then they will benefit from the
spell.
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Please grab a BRB and read losing frenzy. It never says "the only way to lose frenzy is to...". It says "Unlike other special rules, Frenzy can be lost as the game goes on." If you are trying to say that this is legal, then it will work for EVERY SPECIAL RULE printed. If I give a unit ASF then it can't lose it for the remainder of the game. If I give your unit ASL, it wont lose it until the game is over. Since this obviously isn't the case, it brings us to a single conclusion; you will lose Frenzy if the model carrying the banner of rage leaves the unit.
"Models retain their Frenzy for the entire game unless beaten in combat" is pretty cut and dry.
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