frenzy, stay or go?

[AntaresCD]

"Models retain their Frenzy for the entire game unless beaten in combat" is pretty cut and dry.

No it's not. That is one sentence out of context. If you're going to quote it quote the rest of it:

"Unlike other special rules, Frenzy can be lost as the game goes on. Models retain their Frenzy for the entire game unless beaten in combat..."

Let's break this down:

Unlike other special rules, - Now we know we're discussing something out of the ordinary for special rules.
Frenzy can be lost as the game goes on. - Frenzy can be lost during the course of the game where under normal circumstances a special rule would still be in effect.

Ok pause here a moment. That sentence says (putting it together): Unlike every other special rule, you can lose Frenzy during the course of a normal game where under normal circumstances a special rule would stil be in effect.

Normally a special rule, if it's on your profile, stays with you the whole game unless lost to a spell or item. A special rule granted by a spell or item lasts as long as the item/spell is in/active on you/your unit.

So common sense check: Does the fact that you can lose Frenzy affect the normal rules for having a special rule? No, except for what is specifically stated, that you can lose it by being beaten in combat.

Continuing the break down:

Models retain their Frenzy - Note the use of the word "retain." To retain something is to keep possesion of. You have to already have something to retain it. We'll come back to that.
for the entire game unless beaten in combat - Now we know how long we retain it - the entire game - unless we lose combat.

Let's put that sentence together now: You retain posession of this special rule for the entire game unless you're beaten in combat.

So now let's put the whole thing together: Frenzy, unlike other special rules can be lost where under normal circumstances a special rule would still be in effect. You retain this special rule until you are beaten in combat.

You have to have something to retain it!

How do you have a special rule:
1) It's on your profile.
2) It's provided by a spell.
3) It's provided by a magic item.

For #2, you only have the special rule for the duration of the spell. For #3, you only have the special rule as long as the item is within the relevant area of effect (on the character, in the unit, within 6", whatever it may be).

For #1 though, you always have it. Hence the important note that you can lose Frenzy unlike other special rules.

The point is that Frenzy is unusual in that you can "erase it" (lose it) from a model or unit when any other special rule would still persist. How do you lose it, you are beaten in combat. If that condition does not occur then you continue to retain it. If you don't have the rule anymore, then the discussion is moot as there is nothing to retain posession of!

Cherry picking a portion of a rule out of context is generally not a good idea in a large, complex system.

[Wildchild200]

Surely the wording "The unit with this banner has the frenzy special rule" (WOC pg115) means that only the unit with the banner has frenzy and cannot lose it. If the bearer leaves the unit, it is him who is now 'the unit with the banner' so the unit he left does not have it and so can in no way be classed as "The unit with this banner" and does not benefit from any part of its rules

[Iraf]

Antares, I didn't take anything out of context, for it to be taken out of context something else in the paragraph would have to change that statement. Which nothing does. I showed the relevant statement in the paragraph.

"Unlike other special rules, Frenzy can be lost as the game goes on. Models retain their Frenzy for the entire game unless beaten in combat, at which point the enemy have succeeded in ... And the Frenzy (together with all associated rules) is lost."

The item gives the unit Frenzy, they lose Frenzy when beaten in combat. No other time do they lose Frenzy.

Here is an example how you think it would work. Say a Doombull is deployed with a unit of Minotaurs, giving them Frenzy. If they win 2 rounds of combat they have 2 extra attacks due to blood greed. Now, you're saying if the Doombull leaves the unit they lose their Frenzy. He is the one that gave them Frenzy. Blood greed never gave the Minotaurs Frenzy, since they had it from the Doombull already. With your way, they'd be affected by blood greed but not Frenzy.

[AntaresCD]

Antares, I didn't take anything out of context, for it to be taken out of context something else in the paragraph would have to change that statement. Which nothing does. I showed the relevant statement in the paragraph.

"Unlike other special rules, Frenzy can be lost as the game goes on. Models retain their Frenzy for the entire game unless beaten in combat, at which point the enemy have succeeded in ... And the Frenzy (together with all associated rules) is lost."

The item gives the unit Frenzy, they lose Frenzy when beaten in combat. No other time do they lose Frenzy.

Here is an example how you think it would work. Say a Doombull is deployed with a unit of Minotaurs, giving them Frenzy. If they win 2 rounds of combat they have 2 extra attacks due to blood greed. Now, you're saying if the Doombull leaves the unit they lose their Frenzy. He is the one that gave them Frenzy. Blood greed never gave the Minotaurs Frenzy, since they had it from the Doombull already. With your way, they'd be affected by blood greed but not Frenzy.

I honestly don't know how the Beastmen army works as I've never read the rulebook nor played the army, but as to your other point:

I was pointing out the key term "retain." You only retain something you posess. It doesn't say you can only lose Frenzy by beaing beaten in combat. It says you retain Frenzy until beaten in combat. It sounds like splitting hairs but it is an important distinction. In other words, profile/item/spell gives you Frenzy, you retain it until beaten in combat. If the item/spell that gave the model/unit Frenzy is no longer giving them that rule then they have nothing to retain. They didn't "lose" Frenzy when the item/spell left, they are no longer being granted the special rule by said item/spell. Unfortunately English, this lovely hodge-podge language we're using, alows the verb lose to be used in both contexts and confuse everyone.

Bottom line: There is no Frenzy to retain if the special rule is no longer being granted by the item in question because it's not in the unit anymore.

Note: On the bright side, if you have an item like that that grants frenzy, and the unit loses combat, you can take the item out then rejoin (on a later turn since you can't leave and rejoin a unit in the same turn) granting Frenzy again (which they can go on to keep or lose based on how they do in combat and whether or not the character with the item sticks around).

[Khorneflakes]

the thing is banner of rage says that the unit will never lose frenzy even if beaten in close combat. if he dies they are still frenzied.

frenzy is a state of mind not a special ability bestowed by an item like the armour piercing banner

the bsb joins a unit and they become frenzied, he then leaves the unit they will still be frenzied, it just doesnt turn off like a light switch

as i see it they are all worked up and then one of them goes "hey steve the bsb has left us! i dont feel so frenzed now" "yeah i agree, oh well back to the fight"

[Snake22486]

Antares, I didn't take anything out of context, for it to be taken out of context something else in the paragraph would have to change that statement. Which nothing does. I showed the relevant statement in the paragraph.

"Unlike other special rules, Frenzy can be lost as the game goes on. Models retain their Frenzy for the entire game unless beaten in combat, at which point the enemy have succeeded in ... And the Frenzy (together with all associated rules) is lost."

So, this statement says that frenzy is unique to other special rules in that it can be lost as the game goes on. This sentence is contained in the paragraph describing how frenzy can be lost as compared to other special rules.

that is the point of the whole paragraph. not to give every magic item perma frenzy for whatever unit it touched in the course of the game.. so yes, you did take it out of context.

[Iraf]

Snake, I'll have to disagree with you.

[Snake22486]

So how do you know your unit loses flaming attacks when the bsb with flaming banner leaves the unit?

[Iraf]

Because the flaming attacks special rule doesn't give a stipulations that they retain flaming until beaten in combat, it goes away when the bsb is removed from the unit.

[Iraf]

Listen, this is now a circular argument. You're argument revolves around the idea that Frenzy can be lost other than the way outlined on pg 70, and mine is only that outlined on pg 70. We disagree, but seem to understand each others pt of view. I think we're done.

[Khorneflakes]

you lose flaming attacks as it says in the description " models in a unit with the banner of eternal attacks have flamming attacks" if the banner isnt there then you dont get them. all the banners in the rule book have the same exact wording, the banner of rage is worded different

[Artiee]

Sorry, Not sure how you think they would still have frenzy when they no longer have the rule when the BSB dies or leaves the unit. If this is how you play, I sorry that you been cheating your opponents.

[Khorneflakes]

FLUFF sewn from strings of congealed gore, this banner eminates a bloodlust so strong that those beneath it are goaded into a state of permanent rage FLUFF

RULES the unit with this banner has the frenzy rule. they will never lose their frenzy, even if beaten in combat RULES

so if the bsb joins the unit, he gives them frenzy, he then leaves the unit, they will still have it as it says they will never lose their frenzy.

[Khorneflakes]

havent used the banner yet but was thinking of useing it this way, was asking every1 here if this is acceptable or not, dont accuse me of cheating

[Snake22486]

the part about never losing it is to counteract the extra rule in the book that says frenzy can be lost. the rule in the main book is not there to grant this magic banner additional benefits. the banner is worded that way so that while the unit has the banner, they will not lose their frenzy, even if losing a round of combat.

any other use for this banner would be an entirely new form of magic item that does not exist in warhammer. I would not even attempt to bring your interpretation up with someone i was playing against. they are liable to quit on you.

[Askari]

the part about never losing it is to counteract the extra rule in the book that says frenzy can be lost.

I'll believe that's what was intended, but that's not what it says, unfortunately. I think in the specific case of the Banner of Rage, the unit will indeed keep it's Frenzy rule, but due to the banner's own rule stating "They will never lose their frenzy, even if..." Other sources of Frenzy I'd argue are lost when the frenzy source leaves the unit, as the BRB rule for Frenzy does not it's the only way to lose it, just an additional way to lose it.

[T10]

It seems to me that the unit loses the Frenzy special rule when the model that grants it to the unit has left, and that this is different from Frenzy no longer affecting the unit after they have been beaten in combat.

-T10

[HurrDurr]

Iraf has been seduced by the dark side of the lawyering.

@khorneflakes, frenzy is not a state of mind, there are no states of mind in warhammer, only rules with fluff behind them.

It's blatantly obvious that it this argument was conceived based on twisting the description around, can anyone honestly argue that the RAI were to allow this banner to give perma frenzy to any unit it joins, then pop out and move on to the next? It's makes an attempt in the description to explain this but as we've seen time and time with GWS its weak in its comprehension.

Advanced rules overrule basic rules "the unit(singular) with this banner gains frenzy" so you have to ask yourself, are you a unit with this banner?

Saying that the wording permits you to have frenzy even without the banner because the wording "the unit never loses frenzy even if beaten in combat" refers directly to the rule regarding losing frenzy when beaten in combat, and only in combat. Most/All of the cases made were hinging somewhat on that statement meaning that the frenzy was permanent under all circumstances, when the same item description also describes what conditions have to be met for the special rule to take place. This banner grants frenzy, losing the banner would remove the special rule that is granting frenzy.

Just my personal opinion, when there is a clear RAI and that is being disputed, its lawyering.

[MyNameDidntFit]

By RAI the banner's rules are clearly just overriding the lose combat = lose frenzy equation. That much is blatantly obvious.

By RAW, however, is different. You're not going to make any friends playing it like this and I personally would not use it as such, but the fact is that the rules as written declare in a straightforward manner that a unit with that banner in it gains frenzy (thus negating the "you must have it to retain it" argument) and then goes on to state that it may never lose frenzy. I don't know about you guys but I'm fairly certain that "never" has a very solid meaning as "not ever", ie. not even if the banner leaves the unit (through death, the BSB leaving or any other conceivable manner).

[Sayber]

By RAI the banner's rules are clearly just overriding the lose combat = lose frenzy equation. That much is blatantly obvious.

By RAW, however, is different. You're not going to make any friends playing it like this and I personally would not use it as such, but the fact is that the rules as written declare in a straightforward manner that a unit with that banner in it gains frenzy (thus negating the "you must have it to retain it" argument) and then goes on to state that it may never lose frenzy. I don't know about you guys but I'm fairly certain that "never" has a very solid meaning as "not ever", ie. not even if the banner leaves the unit (through death, the BSB leaving or any other conceivable manner).

What he said