frenzy, stay or go?

[oldWitheredCorpse]

This is a case of abusable bad wording. It probably needs a FAQ.

[decker_cky]

Here is an example how you think it would work. Say a Doombull is deployed with a unit of Minotaurs, giving them Frenzy. If they win 2 rounds of combat they have 2 extra attacks due to blood greed. Now, you're saying if the Doombull leaves the unit they lose their Frenzy. He is the one that gave them Frenzy. Blood greed never gave the Minotaurs Frenzy, since they had it from the Doombull already. With your way, they'd be affected by blood greed but not Frenzy.

You didn't properly read bloodgreed. It's clearly written and covers this situation perfectly. Everytime a unit with bloodgreed wins combat, they gain frenzy. Furthermore, if they won combat and already had frenzy, they gain +1 attack. So if a doombull is in a unit of minotaurs, and dies in a round of combat, the unit immediately loses their source for frenzy. If they win that round, the unit regains frenzy, but not +1 attack.

If the doombull survived, and the unit won combat, then the minotaurs are already frenzied, so gain frenzy (from a second source) and +1 attack. The doombull could then leave the unit, and the minotaurs would still have both frenzy and +1 attack.

[Capt._Jaelinek]

After reading the post, I have to agree with Iraf on several points. I'm not a WoC player and have never used said banner of rage, but if a BSB joins a unit the unit gains frenzy, we all agree on that. As long as the BSB is alive and has the banner the unit cannot lose frenzy. We all agree on that. If the unit loses combat and flees the BSB dies and the banner is lost. If the unit escapes and rallies do they still have frenzy? I think not. Here's why. The BSB and banner granted frenzy that cannot be lost. But that rule goes away when the BSB dies or leaves the unit. The unit would then revert to the normal frenzy rules at that point.

If the BSB runs from unit to unit granting frenzy to everyone I don't see this as a problem with the frenzy rules. Frenzy has been granted and the way it is lost is very clear. Now I would disagree that those units would have frenzy that cannot be lost. They would just have normal frenzy when the banner is no longer in the unit.

I really think frenzy is a very different rule than most others. Frenzy is not automaticall granted like other rules. You really need to ignore most other special rules restrictions and read just p70.

[HurrDurr]

After reading the post, I have to agree with Iraf on several points. I'm not a WoC player and have never used said banner of rage, but if a BSB joins a unit the unit gains frenzy, we all agree on that. As long as the BSB is alive and has the banner the unit cannot lose frenzy. We all agree on that. If the unit loses combat and flees the BSB dies and the banner is lost. If the unit escapes and rallies do they still have frenzy? I think not. Here's why. The BSB and banner granted frenzy that cannot be lost. But that rule goes away when the BSB dies or leaves the unit. The unit would then revert to the normal frenzy rules at that point.

If the BSB runs from unit to unit granting frenzy to everyone I don't see this as a problem with the frenzy rules. Frenzy has been granted and the way it is lost is very clear. Now I would disagree that those units would have frenzy that cannot be lost. They would just have normal frenzy when the banner is no longer in the unit.

I really think frenzy is a very different rule than most others. Frenzy is not automaticall granted like other rules. You really need to ignore most other special rules restrictions and read just p70.

What in there allows you to differentiate between it being perma frenzy and it being regular frenzy? From what I've read there's been basically two sentences on the item description and none of them say any of that. We don't all agree that as long as the BSB is alive and has the banner the unit cannot lose frenzy, only those things while it is in the unit. You can't choose which part(s) of a single rule with multiple effects goes away when the BSB dies either, I'm curious how many situations in warhammer even work that way without explicitly stating so. Nothing says the unit reverts to regular frenzy at any point. Saying a unit has normal frenzy instead of no frenzy or perma frenzy after the banner was present in the unit but currently absent is also inferred heavily, the descriptions provided at least just plain don't give enough information to be sure on one ruling or the other.

While I agree there isn't one cut and dry way to interpret the rules I agree with oldwitheredcorpse, it's an abusive play on words. Is a banner buffing any unit it wants with perma frenzy really not set off any alarms for anyone else? Seems pretty extreme for a banner, and odd that it would be intended to be used as a weird hop around and buff mechanic.

[Wesser]

The unit the character is with has Frenzy.

If he leaves it, then they arent frenzied. They havent lost it per se. The source of their unloseable frenzy just isnt there anymore.

Lets leave it at that. I can't think of anyone I know who'd play anyone who wanted to to interpret rules this way

[MyNameDidntFit]

Contrary, the unit the character is with doesn't "have" frenzy. They "gain" frenzy when joined by the character. Once "gained" this version of frenzy my "never" be lost.

It is indeed very RAW and not at all RAI (and as I said earlier you wouldn't make any friends playing it like that) but it's how it's written and any literal interpretation of the rules will tell you so.

[BloodiedSword]

It seems to me that the unit loses the Frenzy special rule when the model that grants it to the unit has left, and that this is different from Frenzy no longer affecting the unit after they have been beaten in combat.

-T10

The banner of rage states that the unit "will never lose their Frenzy, even if beaten in close combat".

While I agree with you that there are 2 ways for a unit to lose "normal" frenzy (1. be beaten in combat, or 2. lose the source of their frenzy), the wording of the Banner of Rage does allow one to ignore any and all means by which Frenzy could be lost. I don't think there's any ambiguity in the wording either.

I'm not going to speculate on intention

[Mercules]

The banner of rage states that the unit "will never lose their Frenzy, even if beaten in close combat".

So are we soon going to argue that Unit X still has frenzy from the last game we played since the player hasn't changed the unit around? It does state, "never".

[Artiee]

So are we soon going to argue that Unit X still has frenzy from the last game we played since the player hasn't changed the unit around? It does state, "never".

Ture.. Thats in the rules as they been trying to apply it.

[Andy p]

This thread is working me up into a......

[HurrDurr]

So are we soon going to argue that Unit X still has frenzy from the last game we played since the player hasn't changed the unit around? It does state, "never".

If I don't use my hail of doom arrow can I save it for future games if my character doesn't die? I'm thinking wait until I get 6 HODAs then go to a bit tourney and tell them I've been collecting them.

Why stop here, can Counts and Khems resurrect units that have died from previous games, the rules don't say you can only raise units from your 3000 point allocation, nowhere does it mention older units not being targets, it also doesn't say they are no longer laying around on the field as a pile of bones.

I'm out of ideas, anyone else have any good ones?

Just one question for those pushing for perma-frenzy, where did you study law ? Even arguing they keep frenzy without banner is completely understandable but perma-frenzy hopping seems pretty ridiculous.

Edit: This makes me think of people trying to deny someone of a melee only ward save because certain close combat attacks are "randomized as shooting attacks" claiming the words "as shooting attacks" concludes that they are shooting attacks not distributed "as" a shooting attack "would be".

[Capt._Jaelinek]

Hurrdurr, sorry if I wasn't clear in my earlier post. What I meant to say is if the BSB is alive and still in the unit they have perma-frenzy. If the BSB dies or leaves the unit there is nothing to maintain perma-frenzy. But IMO that unit would still have normal frenzy from that point on.

I certainly am not advocating rules spanning games, even in the sarcastic fashion presented above. I guess my question is how many points is a Banner of Rage? Can rank and file units take the banner?

If its 10-25pts and anyone can take it then I agree that a BSB running amok sprinkling frenzy dust is broken. But if it's 50 or more points it should be really good and we can start discussing RAW and RAI.

[GodlessM]

The wording is there to indicate that losing combat does not ditch the frenzy, hence why it is specifically mentioned. 'The unit that has this banner has the Frenzy special rule'. 'Has' is present tense. This is a sequence of equations that need to be resolved. If the unit has the banner at present it has Frnezy at present, if it doesn't have it, then this does not apply and part two becomes moot as they have no frenzy to lose.

Stuff like this pisses me off to know end as it along with other shenanigans gives WoC a bad rep as a gamey army. It wouldn't surprise me if it turned put Manson had played Warhammer, because the lengths people go to just to get an advantage in a game of toy soldiers of all things is pathetic and would drive anyone on a murder spree or ten.

[shakedown47]

RAW, which is the only way you can reasonably force someone to look at it, once a unit has gained the Frenzy special rule from the Banner of Rage they will have it for the remainder of the game unless they lose a combat. In addition, a special bonus for the unit bearing or containing the banner is that they can never lose their Frenzy, even if beaten in close combat, as long as the Banner is present in said unit.

pg. 70 of the BRB: "Models retain their Frenzy for the entire game unless beaten in close combat..." This is the only legal way of playing it; you can argue against that if you want, but you'll be wrong because the big book says so and is in no way ambiguous. However, only one unit at a time can be so-called "perma-frenzied" because, while the Banner of Rage grants the special rule Frenzy (without caveats) to any unit that has it or has had it in the course of the game, there is a very specific qualifier for the perma-frenzy effect. The wording of the Banner is read as : "The unit with this banner has the Frenzy special rule. They (the unit WITH the banner) will never lose their Frenzy, even if beaten in close combat." If you don't meet the first part of the condition, in this case being the unit with the banner, you can't benefit from the second part, in this case keeping your Frenzy even if beaten in close combat.

It's that easy, it's that cut-and-dry. It's completely supported by the normal rules and requires no concessions or leaps of faith from either player. Unless you want to play by house rules, and by all means please do, RAW will always be the expected way to play and trying to argue against them with empirical evidence will find you on the losing end, every time. Additionally, trying to argue 7th edition RAI in an 8th edition setting is often going to cause these kinds of headaches, so please do us a favor and just don't. Check the RAW and, if you find there is no ambiguity or non-rule-supported situation, just leave it at that.

[HurrDurr]

@ capt, I see, I agree with it keeping regular frenzy for RAW but not RAI if it says "gain" and not "has" as godless and others have pointed out, but what can you do about that? Once again this could be avoided if the company we shell out thousands to as a community would take 20 minutes to FAQ it.

Would someone please post the exact quote for the item description including fluff, if that's not against the rules.

[slaanghoul]

I hope i'm not breaking the rules here.... but I want ppl to judge this by reading the content in complete details.


Banner of Rage 35pt
"Sewn from strings of congealed gore, this banner radiates a bloodlust so strong that those beneath it are goaded into a state of permanent rage"

The unit with this banner has the Frenzy special rule. They will never lose their Frenzy, even if beaten in close combat.


That's it.

You got to be an idiot to play this banner hopping and can make all your troops in your army frenzy because of the wording. The banner is only 35 pt!!!!
The key word is THE UNIT WITH THIS BANNER..... if the unit no longer has the banner... it doesn't have the special rules any more. The intent is clear that you never loose Frenzy as long as the banner is standing in this unit. FFS.... anybody who play hopping and making your whole army frenzy is cheese. This is my Opinion and nobody can even come close to change my mind about his.... my god.... 35pt to make your army frenzy .... is just stupid.

[oldWitheredCorpse]

The unit with this banner has the Frenzy special rule. They will never lose their Frenzy, even if beaten in close combat.

This is crystal clear to me: the banner doesn't "give" frenzy: the unit with it "has frenzy". It's obvious that this means that if the banner is no longer with the unit, it no longer has frenzy.

[MyNameDidntFit]

So are we soon going to argue that Unit X still has frenzy from the last game we played since the player hasn't changed the unit around? It does state, "never".

Not the same unit. If you played that way, you'd never be able to use a magic item on a character in any game after a character with it died. Or never use a SC after they had died. The rules do not state anything to that effect.

The wording is there to indicate that losing combat does not ditch the frenzy, hence why it is specifically mentioned. 'The unit that has this banner has the Frenzy special rule'. 'Has' is present tense. This is a sequence of equations that need to be resolved. If the unit has the banner at present it has Frnezy at present, if it doesn't have it, then this does not apply and part two becomes moot as they have no frenzy to lose.

Has is indeed present tense. However, once that unit "has" frenzy, they may "never" lose it. As I've made note of multiple times: "never" means "not ever": not if the banner leaves; not if they lose combat; not even if Khorne himself told them to chill.

Of course, as I've mentioned also, I agree that anyone who actually tried to play it as that rather than as the ever-so-clearly RAI version wherein the clause is simply to neuter the "lose combat = lose frenzy" equation is only describable through words this forum would interpret as a series of asterisks. I suppose you could say I'm simply playing the Devil's Advocate.

[Capt._Jaelinek]

Not intending to put sand in the Vaseline, but Witchbrew for the DE army has a similar issue. It's not frenzy, but the benefits of the brew only affect the unit that it starts with. If the Hag leaves the unit they cannot spread the benefits to another unit. RAI never meant for the Banner of Rage to be on a BSB hopping from unit to unit, but realistically how many units can be affected over the course of the game? It's only 4 max. Deployed in 1 unit, moves out turn 1. Turn 2 joins another unit. Turn 3 moves out, turn 4 joins another unit, etc. Also there are 3 turns the BSB is out in the open to be shot or magicked.

I just don't see how this breaks the game.

[endzweck]

Honestly, the amount of support I'm seeing in this thread for this "frenzy-spreading BSB" idea is shocking to me. I would love to see the crapstorm that would ensue if the supporters of this argument tried to pull this over on an opponent in a tournament. Come on guys