Making mounting a monster beneficial

[Rosstifer]

While taking shelter youve just lost a turn or two hiding, if not more avoiding the cannon, aggressive play is the way to go lol

I agree with this. It will usually take 3-4 turns if your lucky to knock out Warmachines. That leaves your monster taking 2 or so more turns to get into position. So turn 5-6 before it's doing anything. Seems like a bit of a waste taking one. I'll still run my Manticore when I have it painted, because I like the model, but only ever in very laid back games (I personally have never seen our local Empire player roll less then 5 wounds with a Cannon hit. It's bloody horrible. 3 Times I've run a Chaos Giant, and 3 times it's been dead before my turn 2, I even marked it Tzeentch for the Ward Save!). You don't end up with obstacles to hide behind, it's not that easy unfortunately.

[The Low King]

I agree with this. It will usually take 3-4 turns if your lucky to knock out Warmachines. .

Really? as a dwarf player who castles his warmachines i dont think mine are ever active past turn 4 at the latest.
As a lizardmen player (or a dwarf player) i can take out most warmachines within 3 turns

[Montegue]

While taking shelter youve just lost a turn or two hiding, if not more avoiding the cannon, aggressive play is the way to go lol

And? I missed the rule that said taking a large monster entitles you to use it in it's most optimum fashion regardless of the enemy's capabilities.

[Ratbeast]

And? I missed the rule that said taking a large monster entitles you to use it in it's most optimum fashion regardless of the enemy's capabilities.

Ive found that unless your unlucky, that cannon wont be enough to kill a dragon or other monster that easily, sure with good rolls it can happen, but from experience its best to get stuck in with a 500 plus point model then sit there and hide, hell one of my most recent games evolved 2 iron blasters failing to kill a blood chariot in 3 turns....... down to luck, you rush and risk, or you hide and risk, either way, i would rather take the chance on getting into combat sooner then later

Oh and if cannons arent shooting super power lead balls at your monsters, chances are they are destroying something else of use/importance

[Kayosiv]

My only issue with the above is the laser guided breath weapon and thunderstomp. IMO stomps and breath weapons should not be able to be used in a challenge. The attacks of the rider and mount combined are enough of an attack vs a single hero tghat the model shouldn't need the extra guaranteed hits.

I've never really liked that breath weapons are limited to once per game. I'd like multiple uses, but they shouldn't be able to be combined with attacks. Unfortunately, with the lack of partials in 8th, that would probably make breath weapons too strong.

[Ratbeast]

I've never really liked that breath weapons are limited to once per game. I'd like multiple uses, but they shouldn't be able to be combined with attacks. Unfortunately, with the lack of partials in 8th, that would probably make breath weapons too strong.

One of the worst rules GW made, dragons breath fire all the time, why limited to 1 per game, wtf........... er i just flame you now i cant flame again............ come on..............

[Texhnolyze]

One of the worst rules GW made, dragons breath fire all the time, why limited to 1 per game, wtf........... er i just flame you now i cant flame again............ come on..............

This was probably due to keeping them in check. With the new autohit, and breathing in combat they needed to limit it someway.

Imagine fighting a dragon that hit you for 2d6 str 4 autohits + 1d6 str 6 autohits + attacks + rider every phase
I think that would have been a bit over the top ^^

[Ratbeast]

This was probably due to keeping them in check. With the new autohit, and breathing in combat they needed to limit it someway.

Imagine fighting a dragon that hit you for 2d6 str 4 autohits + 1d6 str 6 autohits + attacks + rider every phase
I think that would have been a bit over the top ^^

Bring back multiple breath weaps, but no using in combat, FIXED

[theunwantedbeing]

Breath weapons being usable once per turn would have been fine, maybe as an ASL thing instead of stomping.

[Yowzo]

Yes this exactly. My flying creatures take shelter behind buildings and walls. This helps them survive and do what they need to do. If you are in the open, you are going to eat one.

My warboss on wyvern gets to carry their own walking cover, it's a 6-7 strong unit of trolls.

[Texhnolyze]

My warboss on wyvern gets to carry their own walking cover, it's a 6-7 strong unit of trolls.

Oo yea, you are lucky the wyvern is so old it's base is the same size as a troll.

But the monsters on the new oversized monsterbases are very hard to screen, for examples the zombie dragon with some crypt horrors:

1. People are not forced to target a point infront of the crypt horrors, they can just as well target a point on the models or their bases.

1. If I put 2 ranks of crypt horrors infront of the dragon, he will just target a point that is 10" infront of the back of my base anyhow. With the 1" rule that should be 3" from the back of the last rank of crypt horrors. That is just a wee bit into the crypt horror unit. So if he rolls 4 or more on the first arty roll he will bypass them compleatly :/ All this is possible becuase of the length of the new monster bases...
   

So while screening is good, it really doesn't help that much thanks to the new base sizes....

Now, if the unit them selves blocked LOS then they would be great as a screen! But they don't (thanks to true line of sight), and most players will find one way or another to target the ground that can be seen between my Crypt horrors hairy marbles :/

[Yowzo]

Oo yea, you are lucky the wyvern is so old it's base is the same size as a troll.

Slightly bigger, but I see your point.

Base size is one of the reasons I've never run a gobbo shaman on Arachnarock, that base is just huge.

[Montegue]

Monstrous infantry are an excellent screen for canon fire, because if the ball fails to kill one, it stops dead. In fact, they're probably the best screen in the game, to be honest. It's exceptionally difficult to roll a canonball through 2-3 ranks of Monstrous infantry. You gotta hit, then you gotta not flub the roll to wound, then you have to do 3+ wounds, and you have to do it once per rank.

[Lord Inquisitor]

As we went over in the previous thread, MI are not an excellent screen. They're a mediocre screen. Facing three cannon, the odds of a zombie dragon and a tricked-out rider (4+ ward, Charmed shield) surviving a single shooting phase is around 20%. With crypt horror blockers (one of the best blockers, since they have regen), that goes up to 42% that the dragon and rider survive. Better, sure, but still well within the realm of "probably going to die anyway". The downside to using a MI screen is that you've now arranged things so the cannon cannot miss. Unless you roll a misfire, it's impossible to miss (or close to that depending on the size of the monster and number of ranks of blockers). VC do very well, but I don't want to use demigryphs as blockers, for example. They are too valuable to be a bullet magnet.

[The Low King]

Question: could you not put something that blocks line of sight (idk, model your horrors or something?) 12" in front of the back of the zombie dragons base? then your opponant cant physically target the point the want to (simply tell them they can aim there if they can prove they can see the point on the ground )

[Drongol]

Said it in the cannon thread, and I'll say it here as well. Monsters just aren't scary. They lack suitable offense for their cost.

Mounting a fighting character (already very points-inefficient) on a monster just exacerbates the situation.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Question: could you not put something that blocks line of sight (idk, model your horrors or something?) 12" in front of the back of the zombie dragons base? then your opponant cant physically target the point the want to (simply tell them they can aim there if they can prove they can see the point on the ground )

LOL, I can just see it now.

"I just really wanted to have a 12" high, 24" wide BSB banner for aesthetic purposes. BTW you can't shoot at my army, it's TLOS."

[The Low King]

LOL, I can just see it now.

"I just really wanted to have a 12" high, 24" wide BSB banner for aesthetic purposes. BTW you can't shoot at my army, it's TLOS."

That would be amusing.

All you have to do it block LOS to a small area on the ground though, then they either have the option of aiming for a point on the MIs base (wich will hopefully be 4" or so in front of where they want to aim) or on the monster base (with is 4"+ too far forwards)

[decker_cky]

Bring back fly high!

[Kayosiv]

Said it in the cannon thread, and I'll say it here as well. Monsters just aren't scary. They lack suitable offense for their cost.

Mounting a fighting character (already very points-inefficient) on a monster just exacerbates the situation.

I think with Thunderstop they do an appropriate amount of damage in 8th. It's more that they seem to die much easier than I feel they should.

Bring back fly high!

I didn't start playing until 6th edition. Can you explain specifically how that rule worked?