The Barghesi- Discussion and Rules Development

[Eidre]

- How does Hyper-Violent and Fleshcraft as they stand apply to 'Imps'?
- Is there a possible alternate name that they can adopt to fit with the darker theme of the Barghesi?
- Would they be shooting or close combat orientated?
- How would they benefit the army? Would their role be assassination or mere aggrievance of the foe?

Name: any number of possibilities. How about a variation on "Poltergeists" or "Gremlins"?

Type: I don't see these guys as shooters. I'm going for the mental picture of the iconic "Gremlins" movie gremlins.

Role: from the gaming perspective, I see the Barghesi being a mostly dismounted force (units of violent psychotics in a small metal box? I think not). Also, since "hyper violence" doesn't easily fit with the cool control required for marksmanship, I don't see them having large quantities of heavy long-range shooting weapons (e.g. lascannon and missile launcher equivalents). With the majority of their units being slower and softer than a meched-up force of space marines or eldar, they are going to need a way to engage early (infiltrators), slow or wreck vehicles (haywire), and pin/slow down fast infantry types (e.g. jump infantry), to prevent them from being outmaneuvered or blasted apart by long-range shooting

"Hyper-violent" is an easy fit since (as I'm conceiving of them) all "Gremlins" are in units of 1 and are therefore gain Rending but don't take wounds.

"Flesh-craft" would have to be redefined for the Gremlins since they aren't violent assaulters; they should be given a specific rule like Fleshcraft but gives them disruption and anti-vehicle abilities. Turn by turn changes would be very annoying, since they might be anti-vehicular one turn and randomly switch to anti-personnel the next. I would recommend either rolling once at the beginning of each game for each Gremlin, or just make each of their Fleshcraft options be purchasable like a weapon/upgrade. Some thoughts:
- Disruptor: combination of thin flexible limbs, cutting claws, and low-current bio-electricity to disrupt electronic and mechanical systems. Model is treated as being armed with Haywire Grenades.
- Torpor: toxic claws and an invisible cloud of soporific poison surrounds the Gremlin. Treated as having assault grenades, defensive grenades, and the Hit and Run USR. Any unit taking at least one unsaved wound from this model in close combat must pass a Toughness test (majority Toughness) at the end of the Assault Phase or Go To Ground.
- Death from the Shadows: adapted to sneak through even the best defenses and expend all of the pent-up fury ripping apart a single chosen enemy before leaping away (or dying horribly). Gains a 12" assault move ("how did it get past us?"), and may move into base contact with any desired model in the target unit (not just the nearest) where it can fit its base. It also gets the Furious Charge USR, and its close combat attacks have the Poison (4+) and Instant Death qualities (in addition to Rending from Hyper-violent).
- Saboteur: at the beginning of each friendly movement phase, the controller of the Gremlin may designate a single enemy unit within 12" of the Gremlin. All shooting weapons in that unit gain the "Gets Hot!" quality.

[Haravikk]

I quite like both ideas; a multi-wound loner with good combat output and infiltrate could be a fairly frightening proposition, could even start out a bit weak but with the option of gaining permanent abilities as it massacres and maims, so it would be a decent disruptive unit that could rise in threat to become truly monstrous if it isn't stopped. Its role would be combat only, not much use against tougher vehicles but a great way to disrupt the enemy lines, particularly useful for reducing enemy shooting while your army closes perhaps?

Imps could be more vehicle focused able to apply penalties, with some minor infantry penalties so they're useful if an enemy takes few or no vehicles. Possibly having their own, limited flesh craft table, focus on initiative, weapon skill and survival rules perhaps, no hyper-violence since they're markedly different.

Anyway, that could give you two good Fast Attack options depending whether you want to go for pure disruption or try to apply debuffs instead. Debuffs could be more effective in the short term, but the lone hunter could do more long-term damage unless it's killed quickly (though even being shot would serve your purpose if that's shooting not directed at the rest of your forces )

[hazmiter]

Lone hunter type would be a good one, just don't make it redundant like the lictor... Oh wait its not... Nvr mind.
Lone hunter would gain outflank, have base stats, ie str and tough 4, initiative 5, 4+ save, stealth, ws4.

[HeOfTheRedPen]

All the ideas above are good- I have decided to go for the 'lone hunter' Fast Attack creature, as that, I feel, suits the background a little better than the other options. A limited Fleshcraft table would be potentially a good idea- I'll have to work through it and get back to you on that one. In the meantime, I completed the Elites section of the Codex. Please read, enjoy and comment to your heart's content!

[Eidre]

Some thoughts as I was reading through your Elites:

* Pure-Bloods: name is a little misleading (perhaps on purpose); the whole point of these guys is that they have altered their genome away from the baseline barghesi in their quest for perfection; if anything, their blood should be the least "pure" of the entire race.

Their profile and special rules are very very similar to Ymgarl genestealers, but they are worse in most ways (they have to roll for their stat upgrade, they are harmed by Hyper-violent when their out of close combat, they don't get the special deployment rules, no Fleet, lower Ld, etc) and they are 5 points more expensive per model. I would recommend either toning down the cost (12-13 pts?) or improving their statline to compensate (a better idea in my opinion; S5 T5 W2 would not be out of line).

In a similar vein, I'm not sure their current statline deserves the Harbingers of Demise rule; there are plenty of other models in the game that are just as nasty in close combat (e.g. genestealers as mentioned above) that don't generate any special fear effect. This is another argument IMHO for upping their statline to something more fearsome.

I'm hoping that you have plans for either transport, special deployment, shooting defenses, or shooting weapon options for these guys. From the game point of view, walking CC specialists with 4+ armor saves are easy to cut down before they even have a chance to earn their points (lots of high-rate of fire AP4 weapons in nearly every army list in the game). They should at least have Beast/Cavalry movement (not the type, or they can't climb) to reflect their incredibly over-amped metabolisms, strength, and heightened reflexes.


* Flesh-Lords: looks good, although I think they are a bit overcosted as well.

* Brutes: these guys are thematically very similar to Dark Eldar grotesques (including the handlers and potential for assaulting friends); not sure if there is a good way out of this, as their origin is very similar. Perhaps they could be down-costed a bit and just die quickly when their handlers stop injecting them with anti-rejection meds.

Another thought that comes to mind; what if their handlers were physically attached to them like parasites (I'm thinking remoras or similar), interacting with them on a biochemical/genetic level to keep their DNA from breaking down as they force them through constant fleshcraft upgrades. That way, you could give them a rule where when the brute dies, it is replaced by an unwounded Handler model (unless the Brute is hit with something that causes Instant Death, which kills both of them at once).

The previous comments about options to get both Fleshlords and Brutes safely into close combat apply as well; all three of these units are very susceptible to being picked apart by any army that has both mobility and mid-to-long range firepower.


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Some other thoughts about thematically similar works of fiction to draw from:

- The Manga/Anime "Claymore"; the main characters (and main villains) are hybrid human/daemons, where the heroes progress through increasing levels of incorporating their daemonic nature to increase their fighting power without tipping over the edge and becoming ravening monsters.

- From "Magic: The Gathering", the concept of Thrulls; essentially, waste creatures that are genetically altered to fill the needs of their formers. For the Barghesi, wearing "armor" made of under-breeds, or having sub-creature assault grafts (like attack squigs for Orks) seems pretty similar, and much less wasteful than just killing and eating them (which they'll do when they're no longer useful anyway).

[hazmiter]

The brutes are a bit too expensive for the drawbacks, I suggest, maybe drop points by 5 or 6.
The dominant needs to be given tactical options? Fly with wings?

[HeOfTheRedPen]

Hello again, everyone! I've read the detailed comments about the Elites above, and subsequently have tried to fix the section in several respects according to what they have pointed out and critiqued. The overall fixes are as follows:

- Pure-Bloods have been re-named 'Purified Ones', to reflect how their extensive genetic surgery has made them more than their subservients could hope to become.
- The cost of 'Purified Ones' has been lowered from 28pts to 21pts per model (and 33pts to 26pts respectively for the Alpha).
- 'Purified Ones' have received +1 Strength (giving them S6), and a new special rule- Absolute Disdain- which better displays their arrogance and obsession with racial purification.

- Hybrid Brutes have had their points cost lowered to 27pts per model instead of 33pts.
- Mutagenic Handlers have been removed and replaced by symbiotic, parasitic ones instead that grant a special rule- Symbiotic Control- that allows the unit to ignore Rage on a roll of 2-6.
- The Tormented Bodies special rule has been made a little less detrimental, inflicting wounds on a roll of 1-2 rather than 3-6.

-Fleshlords have had their points cost decreased from 22pts per model to 16pts per model (and 21pts per model for Fleshlord Alphas respectively).

- A set of wargear items will be implemented that allow for better defense against ranged weaponry when advancing to assault- a dedicated transport doesn't seem fitting with the background (as was said before, penning up a horde of maddened, hyper-violent beasts in a small metal box would be a VERY bad idea indeed...).

Please let me know what you think and if any changes need to be further implemented. If not, I will make a start on the Troops section very shortly, which should be a little easier considering I already have fully formed ideas in relation to the units to include already in mind.
Yours,
HeOfTheRedPen

[Haravikk]

Hmm, regarding transport options, a kind of stasis vehicle might make sense; i.e - the occupants are held suspended within until the destination is reached, thus nullifying their hyper violent tendencies when in transit. Could be something effectively like drop-pods, which would also explain how any of them could actually survive long enough to make it onto alien worlds

If you wanted to distance them from drop-pods then you could potentially have any number of them able to arrive on the first turn, but their occupants aren't yet awake and able to leave, so it sits there for a turn, making them semi-vulnerable, but once awake the occupants get a a bonus of some kind to represent them being pumped full of drugs or some similar process to bring them out of stasis battle-ready. This could be interesting as it would mean that when the pod arrives it's a forewarning, giving the other player a chance to destroy it to hurt the occupants (who would awake injured and without the bonus) or get out of the way before the grumpy just-woken-up passengers have a chance to emerge.

Sorry if that's more brainstorming than you want for your list, but it would kind of cover Deep Strike/transport options that might fit the army's feel?

[HeOfTheRedPen]

The idea for a 'stasis pod' is a FANTASTIC concept, both in-game and in terms of fluff. I could see the Genesects overriding the savage mentalities of their comrades using a plethora of chemical cocktails and suppression agents before teleporting them into the fray, subduing their pent-up wrath until the enemy is in sight. Thank you, my friend. I'll see what I can do with the development of that idea... Anyway, to keep you all happy for now, here's the troops section! Enjoy!
Yours,
HeOfTheRedPen

[Eidre]

The idea for a 'stasis pod' is a FANTASTIC concept, both in-game and in terms of fluff. I could see the Genesects overriding the savage mentalities of their comrades using a plethora of chemical cocktails and suppression agents before teleporting them into the fray, subduing their pent-up wrath until the enemy is in sight. Thank you, my friend. I'll see what I can do with the development of that idea... Anyway, to keep you all happy for now, here's the troops section! Enjoy!
Yours,
HeOfTheRedPen

...and there is already precedent for this with the Eversor Assassin (nearly identical in fact).

[Eidre]

One fundamental backstory question that might lead to some new ideas about units...

"Who makes the technology?" Specifically, who in the Barghesi race does research, engineering, construction, QA, etc to make the technological devices? Someone has to do it, or the Barghesi will just be a Tyranid analog. However, hyper-violence doesn't lend itself to methodical processes like scientific research, factory work, etc.

Some possible thoughts...

* Hyper-violence is triggered by the presence of other beings (already suggested by the rule itself). Therefore, individual Barghesi, operating in isolation, can do intellectual tasks without freaking out and breaking things. This also implies that (in order to maintain a spacefaring technological basis, not to mention genetic engineering) Barghesi are (or can be) incredibly intelligent, since they can't achieve goals through collective means (i.e. no research teams).

* Some sub-set of the Barghesi have their violent urges suppressed (biologically, technologically, psychically?) in order to accomplish goals requiring more patience and deliberation.

* Non-violent work is subcontracted out to more rational slave species (i.e. provide us with weapons and material or we'll eat your face off). This would flavor the entire Barghesi race as more parasitic and less independent.

Another fiction source you may investigate in this direction is the Ur-Quan race from the old Star Control computer game series: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...r-Quan_Kzer-Za

[HeOfTheRedPen]

Hello again, guys! I haven't been about for a while, due to a certain emotional trauma I have suffered this week, but I have managed to pull together a draft for the Fast Attack section of the army as well as a draft of the rules for the Dedicated Transport Stasis Pod concept. They may not be up to scratch completely, but I think they're the best I can create for now- any comments, especially constructive criticism, is welcomed, and I'll be sure to address any problems as soon as I can.
Yours,
HeOfTheRedPen