Returning to Vampire Counts, need advice.

[Dranthar]

So I'm thinking of pulling my Vampire Counts out of retirement. But it's been quite a while since I last played (I stopped a little after 8th ed) and I've not even glanced at the latest Vampire Counts army book. Needless to say, I need a little help before I start investing in these guys again. :P

So in light of that, could I make a decent Vampire Counts army out of the models I have, below? I'm not looking for an army list, just a yes/no, and why. Furthermore, what would you add to make it more suited to 8th ed, keeping in mind that I haven't got the kind of money that'd be needed to redo the entire army.

2x Vampires (foot)
3x Necromancers (foot)
Tomb Banshee

20x Dire Wolves
50x Zombies
30x Skeletons (HW & Sh)
30x Skeletons (Spear & Sh)
24x Ghouls

4x Bat Swarms
4x Spirit Hosts
5x Fell Bats
10x Black Knights

Black Coach/Corpse Cart (Can be proxied as either)
Vargulf

[m1acca1551]

A very simple yes you can, you have a large number of core units that will allow you to horde your skellies, zombies snd a large pack of ghouls for extra fun.

You have all the basic gear to create a nice VC/necro list.

I cant really recommend whay you should buy next as it may not fit how you play or your theme. My advice though is that a large unit of GG will be greatly beneficial, many will make the argument that crypt horrors are the greatest thing since sliced bread...but im not a fan due to my theme.

Buy the new army book, or use army builder and try them out and what you believe is needed.

[Ville]

Looking very good. You have basically everything you need to play VC like a champ. Remember that it's useful to have some extra Zombies and Skellies for raising purposes.

Get the book, play and learn and add whatever fancy new stuff you dig.

[Balerion]

I agree with the previous posters; everything you have is eminently useable.

You may want to revitalize a couple of the units by adding more models. Ghouls, in particular, perform best when they number in the 30-40 model range. You'll also probably want more than 50 Zombies, since they tend to be deployed at about that size and then grow over the first few turns of the game, due to the new raising mechanics in the 8th edition book.

You mentioned that you're able to proxy your Corpse Cart/Black Coach as either option, so you may want to consider proxying it as a Mortis Engine if you're able (one of the better new units in the book).

As for adding fun stuff, well, you can't go wrong with the new Crypt Horrors, and the Terrorgheist is an impressive and useful centerpiece monster.

[Darnok]

As I can only support the other posters so far, I say: get a few games in. You will have no issues with what you have got so far, but you might want to get some practice before buying additional stuff.

[Lord Skrolk]

Good start to an army I recommend the following additions.

20-40 Mantic Skeles (cheap)
20-40 Mantic Zombies (cheap)

At least 20 Grave guard (Mantic do revenant skeles which are ok, not as good as gw mind)

Finally, one box of either Hexwraiths or Vargheists. I suggest varghiests, as they are a really excellent toolkit unit. Fast, Killy and vampiric so can scoot around flanks easy.

Happy killing!

[GotrekFan]

That's a solid start alright, but I would definitely recommend a mortis engine for support and grave guard for offence.
Vargeists are good but very much a glass hammer unless you take more than 3, but that's a big point sink.
If you want to hold the line then crypt horrors are a great investment.


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[Maoriboy007]

2x Vampires (foot)
3x Necromancers (foot)
Tomb Banshee

How you kit these guys depends on your tast, but you do have to spare some thought to your army, for example if you want to raise fell bats and dogs it would be handy to have summon creatures of the night. Be aware that dice limits affect how much you can reasonably invest in magic.
A wraith is better than a tomb banshe, im sure you can proxy in this case.

20x Dire Wolves

Basically used as units of 5 as disposable re-directors, but at leat they come out of your core allowance now. 1 or two units works fairly well

50x Zombies

Still awful in combat, but cheap enough to be worth it and you can bunker character in them now. They are easy to raise if you can manage to get invocation cast on them so you can always do with more, and support them in combat with any other unit at your peril, they generally cost you more than you gain, raise em is your best defense for them.

30x Skeletons (HW & Sh)
30x Skeletons (Spear & Sh)

Skeletons are a bit cheaper now , but are still only average on a good day, only a single necromancer gets to increase thier numbers so its up to you wether or not you think you need more. You could have a 40 strong unit and a size 20 bunker and not worry about much more than that, but if you have the models to raise more it means your opponant has to worry about invocation from the start.

24x Ghouls

A bit pricey now, and really only work well in units of 30-40+

4x Bat Swarms

Actually usable now (you have 4+ bat swarm!?) Thier ability to cause ASL is nice and pretty cheap, they also make good sigle drop distractions but....
4

x Spirit Hosts

Are very good single drops for holding up units with low CR. Can hold up most monsters and cavalry units short of magical attacks, reasonably priced too.

5x Fell Bats

So-so. Can kind of hunt small units, but marching restrictions hamper thier mobility.

10x Black Knights

The only real Elite unit and/or hammer you have. Not optimal but not too bad for all that.
Grave Guard or Bloodknights are better hammers and Crypt Horrors more resiliant, but at the moment I'm proxying mine as Hexwraiths and quite enjoy them.

Black Coach/Corpse Cart (Can be proxied as either)

The corpse cart abilities are nice and all, but they have a very short range. You'll also find that it will really hamper your movement as it can't march. I reccommend playing a couple of games with it and a couple without it and pay attention to the difference in our maneuverability befor you finally judge wether its worth it.
The coach is ok, its abilities are back to being unlikly to get very far, and instability is an issue to0, but it can be fun to play.

Vargulf

The only other thing close to a hammer, but instabilty and step up means its far more killable than it used to be. For my money hexwraiths are a better investment.

[willowdark]

A general piece of advice to help your tactics, and by extension your army list design, is that Zombies are unsupportable in combat.

I don't play the army, but one thing I hear people who do play the army say, and read in comments on VC threads, is that Zombies die by the handful, so become a big liability to any other unit that might be in the same combat. They are a true tarpit unit, meant to be left alone to do that job. So of the models you have your primary combat units are the Skeletons and Ghouls, which, being core, aren't going to win the game for you. So listen to the advice so far in the thread and pick up some Grave Guard. It's units like those that you can count on to break the enemy line, not Skeletons or Ghouls, and certainly not Zombies. Black Knights are also terrific line breakers. I think they're one of the best cav units in the game, albeit for some reasons that might not be obvious on paper.

It says a lot that after Grave Guard almost everyone so far is suggesting something different. Definitely practice a bit because the new VC book seems like it has some terrific internal balance and can support a few different builds and playstyles. It's definitely a book where you can usually default to picking the models you like and want to paint and you still have a solid chance of building a decent list.

[Dranthar]

Thankyou all for the feedback! I gotta say, when i initially posted this i was expecting people to suggest much larger changes to my collection than what's been said. That I may only need some grave guard, if that, is very encouraging.

My VC army is actually high elf themed, with the vampires from the high elf range, skeletons with elven shields & banners and ghouls converted from the high elf spearmen box, amongst other things. Crypt Ghouls are a unit Ive yet to figure out a suitable proxy for so Im glad they're not considered essential to the VCs.

I actually had some WIP Grave Guard made out of Dark elves that never got off the ground, so i might pull them out again and finish assembling him.

In the meantime, i really should get the VC army book.

[Balerion]

In consideration of your theme, it almost seems like you're duty-bound to add a unit of Dragon Prince Blood Knights.

Dragon Princes are an extremely common counts-as/conversion for many VC players who don't want to spring for the metal/Finecast Blood Knights. Personally, I don't think very highly of that look for a normal VC army, but with your theme it would be a match made in heaven.

[Ratbeast]

Crypt Horrors are a must have, best unit in the book

[Darnok]

In consideration of your theme, it almost seems like you're duty-bound to add a unit of Dragon Prince Blood Knights.

Dragon Princes are an extremely common counts-as/conversion for many VC players who don't want to spring for the metal/Finecast Blood Knights. Personally, I don't think very highly of that look for a normal VC army, but with your theme it would be a match made in heaven.

QFT.

I don't like that conversion, as the results still looks like converted elves, not like the beefy vampire knights they're supposed to be. But if the whole army theme is "undead elves" to begin with, it's awesomeness combined with a cheaper price per model!

[Dranthar]

Yeah, I've considered using Dragon Princes for Blood Knights, but I've always been more of an infantry guy which is why they've never made an appearance.

I've got a few potential elf-proxies in mind for most units I might want to add for my VC army, although I'm still stuck on the Mortis Engine, Coven Throne, Crypt Horrors and Vargeists. I still can't quite figure those ones out, so I'm really hoping they won't be necessary for my VC army.

In the meantime, the Proxy Grave Guard are underway. I only have the parts for 24 though - is that enough, or should I find a way to bump them up to 30+? Also, is it a terrible idea to give them HW & Shields instead of Great Weapons? I can do either, but I suspect the shields are going to look better.

[Balerion]

Grave Guard are best in a horde, so you'd need at least 30 (and preferably 35-40) to make them work that way. You could field them 5-wide, but it would not be playing to their strength. Ditto for the HW/GW question. They can work with hand weaps, but great weapons make them more effective at the job they were born to do. VC are overloaded with anvils and tarpits, but don't have very many things that can actually pump out damage -- that's where horde great weapon Grave Guard come in.

I suppose you could use zombified lions from the lion chariot kit to field Crypt Horrors. For Vargheists you might have to wait until the HE reboot and see if the Drake Riders rumour pans out.

[Dranthar]

Damn. I guess I'll need to find some more dark elf spearmen then.

How do the vargheist's stats compare to that of a great eagle? Especially in regards to wounds, attacks and toughness? I happen to have three (former fell bats until i got some warhawk riders), so if i could use them as vargheists that'd be very convenient.

EDIT: Actually almost as importantly, what sized base does a vargheist go on?

[artisturn]

Actually almost as importantly, what sized base does a vargheist go on?

40 x 40 base the same as a troll.

[Balerion]

Wood Elf Warhawks go on 40x40's, so that would be an option.

I suppose you could just transfer the Eagles to smaller bases, if you don't want to spend the money.

[vinush]

Have you tried eBay for the models you need? If its only a few you might be able to pick them up really cheaply.

THE \/ince

[Dranthar]

The second-hand market will definitely be the plan once i figure out what to get. Especially considering my skeletons are the previous edition models.