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Thread: Are codices cumulative or replaced everytime a new one is released?

  1. #1

    Are codices cumulative or replaced everytime a new one is released?

    I've been arguing with a 'gentlemen' (*******) about whether or not the C'Tan may or may not be chaos deamons. According to the previous codex they simply cannot be, but if you take information only from the new one (and a significant amount of the C'Tans story has changed) it appears to be alluding to the fact that they are.

    The crux of his argument is, I am assuming that the new codex completely overwrite the old one, and that in order to justify my speculation I must get a quote from the writers supporting this. I am arguing that he must also do the same thing, but it isn't going down very well.

    What is your opinion?

  2. #2
    Chapter Master Vaktathi's Avatar
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    Re: Are codices cumulative or replaced everytime a new one is released?

    In terms of an army list? they overwrite the old one.

    In terms of fluff as you seem to be arguing? GW's stance is "all of it is true and none of it is true" pretty much.
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    Chapter Master Bunnahabhain's Avatar
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    Re: Are codices cumulative or replaced everytime a new one is released?

    Rules-wise. The latest codex for a force takes preference.

    Background-wise. The GW position is ( paraphrased) " The 40K universe is one of propaganda, misunderstanding, myths, half truths and mysteries. All our background materiel is correct, even if it contradicts itself. It is up to you to figure it out for yourself from the wealth of materiel.
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  4. #4
    Chapter Master Draconis's Avatar
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    Re: Are codices cumulative or replaced everytime a new one is released?

    Ctan are their own things. They were not born of the warp, but instead energy entities in the real universe. They despised chaos and eventually had to go to sleep because of them in the first codex. In the second, it was the Eldar that made them shut down for 65 million years.
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  5. #5

    Re: Are codices cumulative or replaced everytime a new one is released?

    Oh and here is the thread.

  6. #6
    Chapter Master loveless's Avatar
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    Re: Are codices cumulative or replaced everytime a new one is released?

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconis View Post
    Ctan are their own things. They were not born of the warp, but instead energy entities in the real universe. They despised chaos and eventually had to go to sleep because of them in the first codex.
    It wasn't so much Chaos that put them to sleep as it was the Enslaver plague.

    In the second, it was the Eldar that made them shut down for 65 million years.
    Indirectly - the Necrons were overall weakened from the war and "splintering" the C'tan, so they went into hibernation to wait for a more opportune time to strike.

    -----

    As far as C'tan being chaos anything...nah. They're still "star gods" - they exist in our universe and not the Warp and they certainly don't require belief and emotion to survive.
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  7. #7

    Re: Are codices cumulative or replaced everytime a new one is released?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunnahabhain View Post
    Rules-wise. The latest codex for a force takes preference.

    Background-wise. The GW position is ( paraphrased) " The 40K universe is one of propaganda, misunderstanding, myths, half truths and mysteries. All our background materiel is correct, even if it contradicts itself. It is up to you to figure it out for yourself from the wealth of materiel.
    Could you link me to this quote by any chance?

    I would really appreciate it <3
    Last edited by TehJDot; 04-05-2012 at 17:16.

  8. #8

    Re: Are codices cumulative or replaced everytime a new one is released?

    There's no "official GW 40k canon policy" page we can link you to - GW aren't Lucasfilm. There's a discussion page on Lexicanum which gives links to the Black Library forum posts where the comments were made, but those links are now dead.

    http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/User...s#.T6QgusWQkfw

  9. #9
    Archanist Lord Damocles's Avatar
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    Re: Are codices cumulative or replaced everytime a new one is released?

    Outside of direct retcons (which - contrary to popular opinion - are actually pretty rare) there's nothing to suggest that background from non-current editions of Codexes is non-cannon.


    As for the question of whether the C'tan are daemons, I see no evidence for this being the case in the current Necron codex, that reddit thread, or anywhere else which is worthy of serious consideration.

    The three C'tan mentioned by Szarekh (Mephet'ran, Aza'gorod, Iash'uddra) superficially resembling aspects of Tzeentch, Khorne and Nurgle (bearing in mind that we know almost nothing about Iash'uddra, and seem to be going purely by it's description/name 'The Endless Swarm', and then extrapolating various possible in-no-way-actually-supported-by-background things) means nothing, since those three Chaos gods weren't even formed until millions of years later (by humanity).
    Also, what about all the other C'tan who don't seem to neatly fit into this?

  10. #10

    Re: Are codices cumulative or replaced everytime a new one is released?

    As far as I am aware the gods as we recognize them were created before humanity, no? I know there isn't an exact timeline but the creation of Slanesh predated humanity, or was at least what caused the Age of Darkness and I can't think of it saying anywhere that humanity was the ones to create them. It mentions in the codex that a book in the Black Library states that C'Tan were called by the Necrotyrs incredible hate for the Old Ones. However it also says that an old record on Solemance says that the C'Tan were found on accident, by a stellar probe inspecting a dying star, an obvious reference to the previous codex.

    In terms of the cannon, there is also nothing suggesting that it is cannon specifically. So it can swing either way. There are some other things that sound deamony, but it only shows a correlation. It can swing either way, and will likely be left to speculation.

  11. #11

    Re: Are codices cumulative or replaced everytime a new one is released?

    Thanks for the link, it helps.

  12. #12
    Archanist Lord Damocles's Avatar
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    Re: Are codices cumulative or replaced everytime a new one is released?

    Realm of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned, pg.174-6 explicitly state that Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch arose from humanity, becoming fully conscious during the Middle Ages.
    Slaanesh was 'born' at the end of the Age of Strife in ~M.30.


    The account of the coming of the C'tan in The Book of Mournful Night (Codex: Necrons (5th ed.), pg.6) is specifically noted as being one of a number of contradictory accounts. there is no reason to believe that this is any more reliable than the account from the Solemnance archives, even if we arbitrarily dismiss the 3rd edition Codex (which we have no reason to do).


    What about the C'tan is 'daemony' (which couldn't also apply to any number of other non-daemon creatures/entities)? lets have some evidence.

    The C'tan in fact being daemons [or not] could only 'swing either way' if we ignore everything which was previously written on the C'tan (some of which is still in print outside of the codexes) - something which there is no evidence that we should do, and which has never been done in the past [with regards to non-retconned background].

  13. #13

    Re: Are codices cumulative or replaced everytime a new one is released?

    I wasn't aware of the Realm of Chaos quote, far before my time. So it appears that I'm wrong on this one.

  14. #14
    Archanist Lord Damocles's Avatar
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    Re: Are codices cumulative or replaced everytime a new one is released?

    Just as an interesting exercise in taking this line of reasoning to it's [il]logical conclusion...

    If we were to dismiss all background on the C'tan pre-dating the current Codex: Necrons, there would be [almost] nothing on the Deciever or the Nightbringer (pretty much just their names and the fact that the Deciever may have lied at some point), and so it would be impossible to conclude that they bore any significant similaritiers to Tzeentch and Khorne respectively; and the whole thing would fall down like a pack of playing cards with an extra-dimensional eldrich abomination trying to balance on top, anyway!

  15. #15
    Chapter Master Charistoph's Avatar
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    Re: Are codices cumulative or replaced everytime a new one is released?

    If C'Tan are Daemons, they are daemons of the Materium having no relationship with the Warp and are wholly planted in "Reality".
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  16. #16
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    Re: Are codices cumulative or replaced everytime a new one is released?

    The lore of each codex is allowed to pile on top of existing lore. There has never been any real 'retconning' so to speak. A little bit of housework behind the scenes to make events line up with others and a few planet/system name changes but nothing major. Even those can be chosen to be ignored if you wish, as its all a part of the 40k setting. The 40k galaxy is a large place and works on a sort of 'Chinese whispers' system, with the nuggets of truth being buried amongst the reports, myths and superstitions that exist in 40k. Its just that as those who view it from the outside, we gain a bit more of a overview with the codexs giving us (slightly more) believable and fair handed accounts as they are mostly from a gods eye view.

    C'tan wise, nothing has ever really suggested they are Demons of any kind. They may have certainly influenced the look of some demons (the nightbringer was meant to be the reason many races developed a fear of death after all, you can't tell me that wouldn't have some effect on a species collective conscious and as such the warp), but no influence over it. Likewise, warp energy seems to have little effect on the C'tan. It just kills their food too quickly.
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  17. #17
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    Re: Are codices cumulative or replaced everytime a new one is released?

    I asked an editor at Black Library Live! whether any of the codices were considered superior to any others for background purposes (at least, for the purpose of submitting stories to BL). The answer was: information in any codex is valid - unless contradicted by a later codex.
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  18. #18
    Librarian The Warmaster's Avatar
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    Re: Are codices cumulative or replaced everytime a new one is released?

    Hah, I'm actually one of the people who commented on that post.

    narrativium hit the nail on the head - this has always, as far as I know, been GW's stance on all things canon-related. Any claim that the C'tan are Chaos daemons is simply unwarranted extrapolating from a few names that sound vaguely related to Chaosish things. It would be like saying that an Imperial Guard regiment known as the Skulltakers/Skull Takers - in fact, there are actually two, in addition to a renegade chapter, two World Eaters factions (which could be the same warband a few hundred years apart, but there's no evidence either way) and the daemon Skulltaker - has to be Khornate, just because of the name, whereas their place as examples in the older Imperial Guard Codices suggests otherwise.

    Long story short, nope, they're still anathema to Chaos, gods of the physical realm, and so forth. The only reason that there's little explicit mention of that in the new Necron Codex is because its focus has been shifted away from the C'tan, and more towards the Necrons themselves.
    Last edited by The Warmaster; 07-05-2012 at 13:41.
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