2012 Empire Empire Core units

[tibbyvc]

This was touched on a bit in the Empire tactica thread, but i was just wondering what you Empire players are planning on fielding to fill out your core requirment (or what non empire players really don't want to see us fielding )

I was sorta set on Halbrediers for my detachments so I can get flank charges in to help the combat resolution and possibly actually kill somebody. I was mostly wondering whether the extra WS on the swordsman actually made a noticeable difference in 8th, or whether spearmen w/ shields would be worth it.

To be honest i'm fairly new to the Empire, i previously played Dwarve(f)s and High Elves

[Wesser]

As with everything, take what you want. It's all down to karma in the end

However the best you can do is probably to take 30 knights. Put a Warrior priest in it and call core quits.

If you like detachments then take them with Greatswords.....


Sounds cheesy, but the harsh reality is that knights are far better value than state troops

[GodlessM]

That's neither cheesy nor the most viable option. Big blocks of Halberdiers are the greatest option we have for core, taking smaller footprints, having more attacks (and at higher strength in later combat rounds), more wounds, and most importantly, can take the watchtower which Knights cannot. Were you to take the advise above OP, you would find it hard to compete in that scenario given that the only other decent infantry unit are Greatswords, and with just them to focus on the enemy can deny you the win quite easily. If you go to ~p26 of the main tactica thread you will find more varied opinions on the downfall of the supposedly cheesy Knightstar.

[metalloveman]

I wouldn't say state troops are worthless, but knights are such a great value it's hard not to pass up on them. For a well rounded all comers list I'd take 1 horde of halbs with a detachment of archers and a detachment of more halbs, one or two units 5 knights (if your not taking reiksguard) or 10 inner circle knights, and 20 crossbows with archer detachments. The rest of the army could be a light/metal/heavens lvl 4 a huricanum a block of greatswords or a steam tank and a pair of cannon.

[tibbyvc]

I wouldn't dream of taking an Empire list without Knights so no worries there, but i do really like infantry as well.

I don't play hyper-competitive tournaments, but my opponents are by no means pushovers. So i want to make sure my infantry don't get massacred. So basically Halberds are where it's at with this new book?

[Private_SeeD]

In my 2000pts list I have a big block of 50 halberdiers supported with a BSB and WP with detachment of crossbows and 20 militia. I don't play uber-competitive, so this could all be wrong tactically, I also have 8 IC knights floating around as well

[PurpleSun]

When the book first came out, I pulled out the swordsmen and the halberds and played four games and they failed miserably. I then sold all my core infantry on Ebay and put together a horde of knights.

I played several games last weekend with 30 knights equipped with great weapons and a warrior priest thrown in there, and a Hurricanum running behind. That unit worked so much better than the core infantry, it wasn't even funny.

[madival]

When the book first came out, I pulled out the swordsmen and the halberds and played four games and they failed miserably. I then sold all my core infantry on Ebay and put together a horde of knights.

I played several games last weekend with 30 knights equipped with great weapons and a warrior priest thrown in there, and a Hurricanum running behind. That unit worked so much better than the core infantry, it wasn't even funny.

It better for those points! What happens when someone targets you with an anti horde spell and those knights are in trouble or worse yet , debuff spells. Imagine your magical squad under . Horde great weapons will still put the smack down and without steadfast , you could see an elite unit rail your entire core in a single go. For me, core has always been about useful and bulking up the number of guys. As a non empire player, I would love to see horde knights if only to see them get curse of year'd to death.

[Algovil]

I understand that Inner Circle knights as core is a great choice, but ordinary knights? Last book, they were considered a sub par choice by the community as a whole! Now with 50pts more for a horde of halberdiers, and 10 pts less for big unit of knights, everything changes???

[Wesser]

Well Algovil.. state troops were overpriced in the old book and its even worse now.


I dont know where you were playing, but knights were never sub-par. That cheap 1+ save often have people struggling. I've yet to see anything withstand the charge of that 30 man horde knights and even with a modestly equipped warrior priesr they only come to around 800 points. Not too horrible.

In the games I've played with the new book, state troops reliably fail at making the points back. For the points they cost its almost like asking zombies to do the killing

[Algovil]

Overpriced state troops in the old book? Hordes of 50 halberdiers with a warrior priest was a staple in almost all lists I have seen, spearmen were too expensive I agree. Knights with lances are only s3 in following rounds. I just not find fielding 30 knights in a horde that interesting, spells devastate them, they take up so much room, and if you spend 800 points for a unit in another army you can easily beat that unit.

Basically asking a new player to buy 30 knights to field in a horde is madness IMO.

To answer the question of the original poster: They are all ok, swordsmen are not really worth the points, neither are free company, Hordes of spearmen and Halberdiers are OK if you have warrior priests, wagon, magic to buff them, you can use deep units as well, if you have something else to fight, knights, steam tank, demigryps, greatswords, flaggellants, etc. For detachments, about 15 men are fine I find, here swordsmen could work well, as could halberdiers like you write, spearmen do not work well as detachments.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Core units, hmm. The fewer the better I think. They have a slight chance at being somewhat decent when you get 12 PD and your opponent no DD, you have a couple a buff buggies around, a couple of WP's, some Captains, General and BSB of course, and no opposing units in the vicinity.

[Hali]

Personally I find about a hundred and twenty archers make a great core, no one has a battle plan to deal with that many skirmishers and they can whittle down just about anything to the point where your special(real combat units) can sweep them off the battlefield.

[Artinam]

Doesn't that create a lot of problems with things like deployment, movement and panic tests. I mean they will always be a bit in the way and it seems pretty impossible to keep them all in the leadership bubble of the general. I mean if those units die won't that create a chain reaction of panic?

[DeathlessDraich]

This was touched on a bit in the Empire tactica thread, but i was just wondering what you Empire players are planning on fielding to fill out your core requirment (or what non empire players really don't want to see us fielding )

I was sorta set on Halbrediers for my detachments so I can get flank charges in to help the combat resolution and possibly actually kill somebody. I was mostly wondering whether the extra WS on the swordsman actually made a noticeable difference in 8th, or whether spearmen w/ shields would be worth it.

To be honest i'm fairly new to the Empire, i previously played Dwarve(f)s and High Elves

Hi

Empire is a good choice after Dwarfs and HE mainly because they offer greater versatility

A list of mainly cavalry units is the easiest to handle but you could try to include infantry as well provided you know the tactics needed - how to deploy and move according to your units strengths and weaknesses etc. It will be more challenging.

Assuming you're looking at an all-comers army list here are some ideas to consider:
The holding units:
80+ Swordsmen (never less) plus 2 detachments of 5 Spearmen as Sacrificials - this will hold against all enemy units - Not Halberdiers or Spearmen they won't hold as well for the same no. of pts against all comers. (you need an equivalent of about 93 Halb who will last 4.2 rounds less against the very best while Spears will last 1.4 rounds less)
Maybe another unit of Sacrificials - as cheap as possible
1 Steam Tank - good but beware that it can't hold against a few units - armour negating etc

The slaying units (prioritised to hunt small or weak units; avoiding very good elites or units that will tie them down):
9 Demigryphs or 15 Knights - Inner Circle, Reiksguard etc

Good luck!

[PurpleSun]

It better for those points! What happens when someone targets you with an anti horde spell and those knights are in trouble or worse yet , debuff spells. Imagine your magical squad under . Horde great weapons will still put the smack down and without steadfast , you could see an elite unit rail your entire core in a single go. For me, core has always been about useful and bulking up the number of guys. As a non empire player, I would love to see horde knights if only to see them get curse of year'd to death.

Your arguments are just generic anti-horde ones that have been made a thousand times already when discussing elite hordes. Yes, there are weaknesses to any unit. The point is, that a horde of core knights will out perform the other core units (which everyone has suggested that you use in a horde anyway).

[madival]

Your arguments are just generic anti-horde ones that have been made a thousand times already when discussing elite hordes. Yes, there are weaknesses to any unit. The point is, that a horde of core knights will out perform the other core units (which everyone has suggested that you use in a horde anyway).

let me rephrase. my most expensive horde is 460. they hit like a truck and are durable . theit footprint is decent. if theyall die, i can still win. your 800 points of core has good damage on the charge, horrible foot print,is breakable , and over a third of a 2k list. any anti horde argument can be applied to a third of your points at one time

[GodlessM]

let me rephrase. my most expensive horde is 460. they hit like a truck and are durable . theit footprint is decent. if theyall die, i can still win. your 800 points of core has good damage on the charge, horrible foot print,is breakable , and over a third of a 2k list. any anti horde argument can be applied to a third of your points at one time

This. I think people need to read this when they start thinking one horde of Knights is better than two of anything else.

[PurpleSun]

This. I think people need to read this when they start thinking one horde of Knights is better than two of anything else.

Not this. I run 29 knights, great weapons, standard and musician for 658. This covers your core nicely for up to a 2500 point list, only taking up about 25%. The warrior priest has the crown of command and the enchanted shield, giving him stubborn and a 1+ armor save.

You have overestimated the cost and underestimated its resilience. What you basically have is a large block of greatswords that move better, save better, and have horses that can bite.

[madival]

Not this. I run 29 knights, great weapons, standard and musician for 658. This covers your core nicely for up to a 2500 point list, only taking up about 25%. The warrior priest has the crown of command and the enchanted shield, giving him stubborn and a 1+ armor save.

You have overestimated the cost and underestimated its resilience. What you basically have is a large block of greatswords that move better, save better, and have horses that can bite.

Awesome, and when I cast enfeebling foe, net of Amy, curse of years, purple sun, mind razor unit coming for you, or really anything of equivalent point value attacking , you are gonna enjoy your core doing next to nothing. We didn't over estimate the cost because you throw in a warrior priest. You are one terror test away from GG

As an undead player, let me make a comparison. My 10 hex wraiths are fielded because of units like this. People think a unit is invincible and it becomes a crutch. You don't have to kill it, just stop it and their will is broken. The hex wraiths will probably get the charge because they can charge over and through things. You terror check. You fail, GG. You pass. I then have to beat combat res of 3+ (2 ranks and standard). From there, I kill 3-5 knights a turn till you break and then GG. You won't have much support for them since I am running around with blocks of core fighting everything else. O yeah, and I am only 310 pts