2012 Empire Empire Core units

[CmdrLaw]

I was considering the Knight horde but it didn't really fit. I would still use Knights as core but probably 2 units of 10-12 (depending on level) for each Flank, haven't built any yet so was thinking one group with GW and the IC knights with Lances then can hopefully deploy them against the right things.

Big Groups of Swordsmen to take the center.

[theshoveller]

Swordsmen don't have any convincing selling point other than in units with a fixed size and variable point cost ceiling, aka detachments. They are not any more survivable against most Skaven because of their WS since Clanrats, Giant Rats, Slaves, HPA & DW are all WS 3, so it's not worth the effort against those.

You've missed my point.

Increased survivability in a flank charging detachment = greater likelihood of cancelling Strength in Numbers. The Swordsmen have parry saves, no other state troop unit does. WS4 only potentially makes them harder to kill (with debuffs on the target), perhaps, but I wasn't considering Skaven in that point - rather the hordes of WS4 units in the game.

[Valaraukar]

I usually play around 2000 pts and generally rely on big blocks of infantry taking the charges with warrior priests set in to buff and bash head. At least two wizards, one for buffs or resurrections and one to blow up the enemy. And knights to charge flanks and disrupt ranks (hordes are popular in Kansas) and then some war machines because they're a lot of fun. Any suggestions to improve that?

To add to what blue mage has said I think Chaff is very useful and I haven't seen you mention it, my favourite method for incorporating it is to take a mix of detachments of 5 archers on a few of my blocks, though these don't function as deployment drops so one or two ten man units as well to pad the deployment out. I usually have one solid block of state troops which I place in the middle once I've added in the artillery, a couple of ten man archer units and a shooting unit the enemy battle line has usually started to emerge allowing you to put the right tool in the right place and not be horrendously outdeployed, though it must be said that other armies have cheaper chaff than us.

This is where I find the 5 man detachments useful as whilst they are deployed with the parent units from turn 1 running these ahead and setting up unfavourable lines of pursuit from fleeing charges or holding to act as a speedbump or give an unfavourable line of overrun buys you a bit of time to sort out your back line to meet the enemy and delays them crossing the board giving your artillery and shooting time to remove or at least whittle down some of the key threats. Against shooting heavy armies they also act as an effective screen for your main unis either providing cover for them or needing to be removed first which as skirmishers is more difficult than it should be.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

You've missed my point.

Increased survivability in a flank charging detachment = greater likelihood of cancelling Strength in Numbers. The Swordsmen have parry saves, no other state troop unit does. WS4 only potentially makes them harder to kill (with debuffs on the target), perhaps, but I wasn't considering Skaven in that point - rather the hordes of WS4 units in the game.

I agree, Swordsmen can be situationally useful as a detachment. I didn't know you meant to say parry when you focussed on calling WS 4 their selling point. I also missed that you were not talking about Skaven when you only mentioned them and no other unit(s).

[theshoveller]

I agree, Swordsmen can be situationally useful as a detachment. I didn't know you meant to say parry when you focussed on calling WS 4 their selling point. I also missed that you were not talking about Skaven when you only mentioned them and no other unit(s).

I did originally say "in addition". I also face a lot of Stormvermin.

I've been playing mainly Knights as core, but I did that under the previous book too. When I do go State Troops heavy, I shall probably go for large spear blocks with 15-man sword detachments. And lots of Wyssan's Wildform.

[Scythe]

And why are free company so disliked? I never use them, but looking at the book; they have the same stats as other state troops, and with the way supporting attacks go in 8th they get just as many attacks as spearman: 2 for each guy on the front and one in the 2nd rank, as opposed to one attack per each rank of spears... Is it the lack of armor and shield options?

They compare pretty well to spearmen indeed. Point is, spearmen are cheaper, can take detachments, and come with light armour (really minor advantage, but still). In comparison, free company keep their attacks longer (as they need less models to make full attacks) and attack with more on the charge / against a flank. Decent advantages, but not worth a point increase. Free company would be ok if they were 5 pts, like spearmen.

[tibbyvc]

Ahh I hadn't noticed the cost difference. That one point certainly could add up with so much infantry. Thanks

[tibbyvc]

So on the topic of knights, is the "new and improved" steel standard worth it for knights? ...Given I have an awful knack for rolling snake eyes on charge distance...

[Tuttivillus]

It's solid IMO, that reroll is nice addition. Same thing for pegasus reroll, glad to have that too.

[Demoulius]

Il just post this here as I think its pointless to make another topic for this alone Im having some trouble with my army list (and empire in general as im a horrible general )

I run a horde of 39 halberdiers with 20 swordsmen detachment and unit of 40 greatswords with full command at 2500 pts. Would these be enough combat units? I also run a unit of 10 IC knights, 3 demi gryphs, grreat cannon, hurricanum, hellblaster and characters. (general, lvl 4 light wizard, BSB and 2 WP's)

The list seems.....tiny somehow. I think an O&G buddy of mine has more bodies on the table in his 1500 pts list, even with only 1 unit of goblins

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Il just post this here as I think its pointless to make another topic for this alone Im having some trouble with my army list (and empire in general as im a horrible general )

To be honest, I've not yet managed to come up with a satisfying army list myself.

I run a horde of 39 halberdiers with 20 swordsmen detachment and unit of 40 greatswords with full command at 2500 pts. Would these be enough combat units? I also run a unit of 10 IC knights, 3 demi gryphs, grreat cannon, hurricanum, hellblaster and characters. (general, lvl 4 light wizard, BSB and 2 WP's)

The list seems.....tiny somehow.

Exactly my feeling. I don't think it will be enough combat units against 80% of the armies out there but I don't think it's possible to change that.

[Tuttivillus]

Il just post this here as I think its pointless to make another topic for this alone Im having some trouble with my army list (and empire in general as im a horrible general )

I run a horde of 39 halberdiers with 20 swordsmen detachment and unit of 40 greatswords with full command at 2500 pts. Would these be enough combat units? I also run a unit of 10 IC knights, 3 demi gryphs, grreat cannon, hurricanum, hellblaster and characters. (general, lvl 4 light wizard, BSB and 2 WP's)

The list seems.....tiny somehow. I think an O&G buddy of mine has more bodies on the table in his 1500 pts list, even with only 1 unit of goblins

You can manage that somehow. For example, Youcan try unit of 30 GS with 15 man strong swordsmen detachment. How many characters You play? Cause from what You gave us it must be pretty high number.

[Kamizanate]

Has anyone tried this -

30 man unit of halberds with HoT crown of command character and Priest character hiding behind two 15 man halberd detachments. Simply use the parent unit for buffs, making the two detachments versatile, cheap stubborn roadbumps that can actually pack a little punch with hatred/prayers.

Depending on the nastyness of the unit in front of you, engage with one or both detachments, buying you 1-2 rounds of combat. Plenty of time to swing around a ranked unit of knights or a hitty unit of demigryphs on the flank. By the time the detachments are wiped out, the parent unit can jump into the combat to tilt the odds in your favor.

It seems to me not only like a good way of protecting your characters, but exactly how an empire general/captain would behave - commanding his troops from the back and charging into battle only when he must.

[GodlessM]

Has anyone tried this -

30 man unit of halberds with HoT crown of command character and Priest character hiding behind two 15 man halberd detachments. Simply use the parent unit for buffs, making the two detachments versatile, cheap stubborn roadbumps that can actually pack a little punch with hatred/prayers.

Depending on the nastyness of the unit in front of you, engage with one or both detachments, buying you 1-2 rounds of combat. Plenty of time to swing around a ranked unit of knights or a hitty unit of demigryphs on the flank. By the time the detachments are wiped out, the parent unit can jump into the combat to tilt the odds in your favor.

It seems to me not only like a good way of protecting your characters, but exactly how an empire general/captain would behave - commanding his troops from the back and charging into battle only when he must.

Why would you spend 200pts+ on a parent unit in order to make two 100pts+ detachments stubborn when you could just use the parent unit to do the exact same thing? Seems like the above is a large waste of points.

[Kamizanate]

Just using the parent unit exposes the frail characters who must fight in the front rank. It is their passive abilities that allow the unit to stay put and fight back with any sort of power. So, keep them alive by keeping them out of combat, still lending their abilities to the detachments.

I love the idea of having an awesome character that gives their command to their fellow troops, but hate the fact that said character isn't exactly hard to kill.

[Morax]

Well you could field a Captain BSB with crown of command in a unit of 15 swordsmen with banner and musician. Field them 2 across and 8 deep and you have a nice speed bump for a reasonable price, grand total 240 points or so. You opponent would have to kill 14 swordsmen to get to the bsb.

[Demoulius]

You can manage that somehow. For example, Youcan try unit of 30 GS with 15 man strong swordsmen detachment. How many characters You play? Cause from what You gave us it must be pretty high number.

5 Characters in that list, which to me doesent sound like alot in a 2500 pts list.... The lvl 4 has the book of ashur and seed of rebirth and the general has an ogre blade, dawnstone and ironcurse icon. So perhaps I spend to my points on magic items, I dont know... The general is lacking a ward save but most people I play dont even attack my characters but go for the easy CR by hitting the state troopers only in challenges does he get hit.

The idea was a general and WP for both of my hordes but thinking about it the greatswords dont need to roll their ld8 stubborn test with reroll on 3D6 so taking him out of the list is in itself a solution, freeing up points for a unit of swordsmen to run in bus form. Having a LD9 general sounds almost to good to pass up though...

The warrior priests are pretty cheap and rerolls on a hordes of infantry can make a massive difference (also their bound spells are pretty neat as well )

Il just have to give my list a try but I have the hunch that im to light on infantry.

[Tuttivillus]

5 Characters in that list, which to me doesent sound like alot in a 2500 pts list.... The lvl 4 has the book of ashur and seed of rebirth and the general has an ogre blade, dawnstone and ironcurse icon. So perhaps I spend to my points on magic items, I dont know... The general is lacking a ward save but most people I play dont even attack my characters but go for the easy CR by hitting the state troopers only in challenges does he get hit.

The idea was a general and WP for both of my hordes but thinking about it the greatswords dont need to roll their ld8 stubborn test with reroll on 3D6 so taking him out of the list is in itself a solution, freeing up points for a unit of swordsmen to run in bus form. Having a LD9 general sounds almost to good to pass up though...

The warrior priests are pretty cheap and rerolls on a hordes of infantry can make a massive difference (also their bound spells are pretty neat as well )

Il just have to give my list a try but I have the hunch that im to light on infantry.

No, just give it a go. It should do well. Demigryphs eat people You know. General is solid choice for GS. I used him in GS alongside with swordsmen detachment and they hold the center for 5 turns. After You'll play it You'll know better.

[GodlessM]

Just using the parent unit exposes the frail characters who must fight in the front rank. It is their passive abilities that allow the unit to stay put and fight back with any sort of power. So, keep them alive by keeping them out of combat, still lending their abilities to the detachments.

I love the idea of having an awesome character that gives their command to their fellow troops, but hate the fact that said character isn't exactly hard to kill.

It's still way too many point to spend when you don't plan on your parent unit actually doing anything.

[Demoulius]

It's still way too many point to spend when you don't plan on your parent unit actually doing anything.

You mean you never send your state troopers on a suicide misison? Your no proper count then!

You have any idea how all those pirates and brigands (free company) cost if they survive the battle? Its madness I say!

@Tuttivillus: I havent used demi-gryphs yet, but I can inmagine they can wreck some havoc Would they be able to take on a unit dead on? Or do I have to use them as flank chargers (albeit stronger ones) like knights?