Are Empire swordsmen still worth taking?

[Mentat Bashar]

I have one question for you. Do you love the models?

If the answer is yes, then use them. It's your army after all.

THE\/ince

You're absolutely right on that. And I do love the models. The main reason for my question is essentially that I also love the money left in my bank account So I'm just weighing the feedback I get against what I can see myself buying and slipping past the missus.

[The bearded one]

Swordsmen are not good defensively, and neither are they good offensively. Both Halberdiers and Spearmen are better in both regards. The formation has very little to do with this. Against opposing units of the same class - Gobbos, many Undead, Clanrats - of a similar size and in the same formation, combats tend to be draws or are won and lost by a small amount. Fielding anything in bus against such units in horde will result in less kills, relatively more casualties and is a guarantee to lose the fight.

Swordsmen are not particularly good at defense, but they are better than halbediers and spearmen. Halbediers have a 6+ and spearmen (if they purchase shields) have a 5+ armoursave at WS3. Swordsmen a 5+/6++ at WS4. However they're not very pointseffective, especially compared to the other statetroops.

[Torga_DW]

Swordsmen are not particularly good at defense, but they are better than halbediers and spearmen. Halbediers have a 6+ and spearmen (if they purchase shields) have a 5+ armoursave at WS3. Swordsmen a 5+/6++ at WS4. However they're not very pointseffective, especially compared to the other statetroops.

Keep in mind, if the halbadiers and spearmen buy shields, they're only used againt ranged attacks. Which gives you something against bows and crossbows, but blackpowder or s5+ will negate it completely. I guess it'll depend on your local meta as to whether or not its worth it. Myself, i'm finding swordsmen are 1 point too expensive for me to consider them, at least on paper. Especially as you can get relatively cheap warrior priests with a bound spell that gives 5+ ward in close combat. But thats just me.

[The bearded one]

Keep in mind, if the halbadiers and spearmen buy shields, they're only used againt ranged attacks.

halbediers can't use shields in combat, but spearmen can. Hence I said halbediers have a 6+, and spearmen can have a 5+ save.

[Mentat Bashar]

Well, I think that using whatever stays longer on the table is good, but all I hear is that 8th is about kills, so I think I'll go with halb horde and continue being used to putting up insane amounts of infantry on the table only to remove them in handfuls at a time. But hey that's the Empire for you.

[Torga_DW]

halbediers can't use shields in combat, but spearmen can. Hence I said halbediers have a 6+, and spearmen can have a 5+ save.

wait what? spears can be used with shields in cc? I must be playing wrong, i thought only hand weapons could do that. Time to recheck the book it seems.

edit: it does seem you're right, they lack the two handed rule. Was it always like this? Me and anyone i've ever played has used them as two handed.

[The bearded one]

wait what? spears can be used with shields in cc? I must be playing wrong, i thought only hand weapons could do that. Time to recheck the book it seems.

edit: it does seem you're right, they lack the two handed rule. Was it always like this? Me and anyone i've ever played has used them as two handed.

* checks 7th edition rulebook *

It was the same in 7th edition as well. 2 hands for halberds, 1 for spears. The only spearwielding troops I have used thusfar are saurus and clanrats, and on those models a spear and shield look a lot more reasonable than on the empire spearmen, who appear to wield them with 2 hands like a halberd.

[Torga_DW]

Wow. My lothern seamen (who i buy the optional shield for anyways) have just gotten better. On the other hand, given the warrior priest 5++ and the cost of spearmen with shields, it makes me less inclined now to consider empire swordsman than before.

[The bearded one]

parry is still handweapon & shield only though.

[Artinam]

Spears were onehanded in the 6th edition as well.

WS4 helps a bit to, do not underestimate being hit on 4's by anything but elite troops. Without characters Swordmen are more survivable and probably equally killy then spearmen (for hitting on 3's in certain situations).

if you want a cheap block of troops , spearmen are cheaper and slightly less resilient. For Killing things Halberdiers are in every way better. They can certainly work but many would argue that they are a less them optimal choice.

[Cherrystone]

* checks 7th edition rulebook *

It was the same in 7th edition as well. 2 hands for halberds, 1 for spears. The only spearwielding troops I have used thusfar are saurus and clanrats, and on those models a spear and shield look a lot more reasonable than on the empire spearmen, who appear to wield them with 2 hands like a halberd.

Its been like it ever since 2nd edition (and probably 1st but never played that).

[theunwantedbeing]

Ah, I missed the Sheild of Faith ability of the Warrior Priest, that does rather rain on the parade of swordsmen and the parry save, especially as it's such a low casting value spell (easily 1 diced). Halberdiers with that would certainly be the more useful choice, especially given the higher strength they hit at and the fact that they cost less.
You could almost afford a warrior priest with the points saved on a big unit of swordsmen.

[Minsc]

Swordsmen also don't benefit as much from a Luminark as Spearmen/Halberdiers do.

"Are Empire swordsmen still worth taking?" - My answer to that has to be no. They're not even nearly worth their point-cost.

[vinush]

I'll be honest, I'm tempted to see if I have a spare 20 halberds to put on my unpainted 20 swordsmen. The problem I'll have is I use the free company/militia halberds as they are a more sturdy halberd than the state troops ones which snap in a strong wind.

THE \/ince

[Makaber]

I think people in general underestimate how huge WS4 is compared to WS3. I wouldn't want all my infantry regiments to be Swordsmen by any means, but if I were to have two solid blocks of infantry, I'd make sure one of them were. "Is a hammer a good tool to have"? Well, it depends on what sort of task you're up against. And personally, I like to have as many tools as possible available.

That said, I wouldn't expect them to do much damage. WS4 on a Strength 3 model is mostly a defensive boon, one which their sheilds compliment very well.

[Walls]

People are crazy if they think Spearmen are better defensively. No parry, worse WS. That makes them WORSE defensively.

[Jind_Singh]

Disagree - WS 4 is decent as being hit back on 4s from WS4 troops is huge. The 5+/6++ is ok, it's about as good as it gets for lower end troops.

The main question is....is the price point fair for what they do?

They are cheaper than Orcs and Savage Orcs - which are better at higher toughness and strength.
They are better, which is why they cost more, than Skeletons.

(Note how it's just comparing to other 8th ed books and their points costs)

Compared to Halberdiers and Spearmen, in Empire core troops vacuum, then sure they are worth what they cost - but the bigger question is in the grand scale of things are armies of swordsmen worth the effort these days??

NO - not really - but this could also be down to the fact that EVERYONE has swordsmen - yet not so much spearmen and halberds - so in order to encourage the new AND old generation of Empire players it makes sense to plug those types - similar to how Orc Boyz took a back seat when the new Savage Orcs came out in the Orcs & Goblins book.

Having said both Orc Boyz AND Empire Swordsmen still have a role to carry out in the new books - but it's a journey we have to take to discover their exact role in the new Empire meta-game.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Swordsmen are not particularly good at defense, but they are better than halbediers and spearmen. Halbediers have a 6+ and spearmen (if they purchase shields) have a 5+ armoursave at WS3. Swordsmen a 5+/6++ at WS4. However they're not very pointseffective, especially compared to the other statetroops.

Swordsmen are not better defensively since they run away or are killed faster. Granted, they have a shield but the others overcompensate for that with numbers, strength and attacks. Swordsmen will often lose steadfast faster than the others, are killed sooner and are run down more often despite a lower casualty rate. Being often fielded in bus only exarcerbates the problem, as they will automatically lose way more often instead of actually winning a fight.

Strength and attacks are defensive characteristics in the way that they serve to reduce enemy attacks, which Halberdiers do, and Spearmen are almost always better because of their greater number.

For detachments, the latter hardly matters because we will usually take the same amount of models, 20, 25 or so. Here, Swordsmen will indeed be serviceable.

[Mentat Bashar]

Ok, I'm a bit thick today, but are you saying that swordsmen have a better armor save and are less likely to be hit on 3's than say, halberdiers, but still they are not better defensively? Is it because of the better killcount the halbs might get? Jeez I really have to get my meta going.

[The Low King]

Swordsmen are not better defensively since they run away or are killed faster. Granted, they have a shield but the others overcompensate for that with numbers, strength and attacks. Swordsmen will often lose steadfast faster than the others, are killed sooner and are run down more often despite a lower casualty rate. Being often fielded in bus only exarcerbates the problem, as they will automatically lose way more often instead of actually winning a fight.

Strength and attacks are defensive characteristics in the way that they serve to reduce enemy attacks, which Halberdiers do, and Spearmen are almost always better because of their greater number.

For detachments, the latter hardly matters because we will usually take the same amount of models, 20, 25 or so. Here, Swordsmen will indeed be serviceable.

Against troops of a similar standard, say T3 WS3 troops, hitting on 3s wounding on 4s is the same as hitting on 4s wounding on 3s.
Against better troops (WS4) being hit on 4s rather than 3s makes as much difference, if not more, than doing slightly more kills.