What's the beef with Grey Knights?

[Reivax26]

According to all the fluff that has ever been about them they are supposed to be the Best space marines in the galaxy, period. However there is one thing in the codex that infuriated me beyond all that has ever been...anywhere. To think that a Grey Knight Grand Master could carve his name into the chest of a Primarch, let alone a Primarch who has been granted Daemonhood, is the biggest joke in the history of this game. There isn't anything that even compares to how ludicrous that is. I had though about building an army of them and after reading that one thing not only did I not buy the army, I have made it my personal goal to crush every Grey Knight player that I run into.

As far as them being underpriced and overpowered yes they are all of that. Purifiers and the Draigowing alone are enough to infuriate most people. If the Vindicare only got one shot of each type of its special ammo then it wouldn't be bad. Thats how it was before. Nowadays the bastard can sit in the top of a building and blow up a Land Raider every turn it can shoot, which is stupid OP.

[lantzkev]

You can't take any transports as dedicated for terminators.

Booo freaking hooo...

Seriously that is not a disadvantage. Sorry it's harder to spam landraiders....

As for the sniper comment, this has always been the case, and it's always been the case that it's 150pts nearly in a easy to kill model. Go get some assault in it and/or heavy weapons on it.

[Geep]

Almost every Grey Knight unit can fulfill any roll needed- all have decent shooting, nasty combat and usually a slew of special rules on top of that. As an example, even their Terminators can safely assault into cover by using grenades- breaking an unwritten rule that's been in the game for ages.

Being such a (often) small army model wise, it does make sense to have some versatility, but GK's overdo it. As an example, Eldar are also known for having expensive elite squads- Howling Banshees aren't feared for taking out walkers, Striking Scorpions aren't feared for their shooting, Fire Dragons can't handle a combat- all other elites from other armies have to make compromises. In a random-draw style game with pre-set lists, Grey Knights will almost always have multiple ways to take out specific enemy units. Enemy armies may be lucky if they have one or two squads that are specialised against anything in the entire GK army.

If list tailoring is allowed with opponent knowledge in mind it doesn't seem so bad- GK can pull out all sorts of nasty specialised tricks (in addition to all-round awesomeness), but when an enemy army knows to be fully armed with plasma or meltaguns the GK's will actually have to try if they want to win.

Edit:
I should also point out that known rules issues are clearly exploited by GK's in some cases- wound allocation rules in multi-armed, multi-wound squads are a serious pain- and probably a part of the reason things like Tyranid Warriors lost almost all of their possible variety in their last book. But then GK's get Palladins, with a heap of weapon options, upgrades, etc. Causing a single casualty on these guys is pretty damn difficult for most enemy units.

[Justicar_Freezer]

I played Grey Knights back in the Codex Demonhunter days and enjoyed them back then and was intially happy to get a new codex. After reading through the new book a few times I like it but there are some things I just can't ever see taking because to me they just don't fit. Personally it really feels like the codex should have been two books. Codex Grey Knights and Codex Inqusition.

I get the feeling alot of the problem seems to be the ability to take a special character that lets you spam multiple cheap henchmen squads that all count as troops. To me that just seems wrong. I think it should be one way or ther other either all Grey Knights or all Henchmen/Inquisitors/inducted troops with maybe one or two elite Grey Knight units. Because from a fluff standpoint if the grey knights are mobilizing in force any demonic incursion would be far to extreme for bands of henchmen to handle and on the inverse if an Inquisitor is taking to the mean streets/battle fields he won't want to bring one of the most secretive and elite space marine chapters with him in force.

Really alot of the special character seems to be silly as well. I mean I love that you can run an all terminator list because to me it feels fluffy but why give the option to make it into an all paladin list that is just silly....then there's Crowe who I just don't agree with from a fluff stand point. It says that the purifers are supposed to be a very rare branch of the grey knights except in times of dire peril or something to that effect. So I really think that the unit should have been a 0-1 selection and that if Crowe was included he could have removed that 0-1 limit, maybe made them scoring but kept them in the elite section.

It just seems that the codex fosters cheesy lists. At my last FLGS the owner picked up a Grey Knights army when the book came out and the second time I talked to him he'd jumped on the henchmen/purifer bandwagon. I just don't get it. I think the new Codex can be interesting (mind you I've never played it and there were alot of things I prefered in the old book like the way nemesis force weapons worked.) if the player approaches writing an army list from a fluff stand point. Personally I have over 35 of both the 4th edition metal terminators and some of the old 2nd edition terminators and my initial plan when the book came out was to make a Terminator army supported by only things that could deep strike so Dreads, and Dknights simply because I like the model others miliege of said model may vary and an all power armored army. The idea was that the Power armor group was the initial punch of the battlegroup and if the incursion was to bad the terminators were the hammer blow to be teleported in where needed. Though I just haven't been able to find the motiviation to do it.

So to close since I got a bit long winded there, I think the big problems seem to be Special characters which open up over the top spam abuse which leads to whatever weakness the codex is meant to have being ignored.

[Dark Primus]

The are more Tyranid Hunters than Daemon Hunters. If Tyranids were on life support, they're competitively dead now. I don't think there was a single Nid player at Adepticon.

This says everything.


Edit: have no idea why two images comes up.

[RunepriestRidcully]

I played Grey knights with the codex Daemonhunters, and just stopped when the wardtrocity came out. Terrible fluff is one thing, baby carriers another. Being so broken that in one club I was at they agreed opponents could have 500-1000pts extra in games, and even then they still struggled to get draws agaisnt the grey knights?
As someone who used to enjoy the challenge of the old codex, I've just shelved my Grey knight untill either another codex or I find people who would be willing to let me use the old one.

[AmonRa]

I had though about building an army of them and after reading that one thing not only did I not buy the army, I have made it my personal goal to crush every Grey Knight player that I run into.

Dude, really? That one sentence (as hilariously stupid as it is, granted), not only made you dismiss the army, but made you a true Grey Knight hater? Wow, talking bout hilarious.

On topic: The Grey Knights are certainly more competitive than they should be. I've played GK for about four years and when the new codex hit, I was both excited and disappointed at the same time. Now i have my friend who plays Space Wolves constantly whine at me because of them. And I understand him to a certain degree. If you're fun players, non competitive, there should be ways to work around these issues, like putting a 0-1 to certain units. Sad this has to be done, but I prefer it to shelving a whole army. In tournaments though, well, that's a tough nut to crack.

[El_Machinae]

If you're playing in a small group, you could just balance it out by letting them play with a 10-20% point advantage. You could just resign yourself to the fact that you'll have to lose most of the time to avoid having people complain about your army. If you're mature enough to enjoy playing games you're likely to lose, then they're a fun army. Remember, if the army is 'broken', then people would have to shoulder that same maturity in order to play *you*

[Renka]

All rules-issues aside they are very well represented. I don't know if it can be blamed on the "flavour of the month"-effect, but they have sky-rocketed in popularity. I think a lot of it comes from the fact they are the most "elite" army out there, which apparently is in high demand.

I understand not wanting to spend a fortune on a horde army, I understand not wanting to spend a life-time painting your force, but the model count in lists out there is pretty crazy. In a meta where special characters tend to change the force organization chart around, seeing what could readily be identified as actual "troops" is getting rarer! I think this is kind of a shame, every model you field shouldn't need to have their unique special rules. Call me old fashioned, but I like to see some actual grunts on the table.

[Mikial]

Incorrect. One significant thing missing from the GK codex (and I'm sure it's missing on purpose) is the ability to buy storm shields on actual GK (some inquisition still get them).

You can't take any transports as dedicated for terminators.

You can't take drop pods.

You can't take missiles, lascannons or meltas on heavy support infantry

You can't split fire from heavy support infantry

You can't take lightning claws.

You can't take sniper squads.

You can't take landspeeders or bike squads.

You don't get Predators, Vindicators, Whirlwinds or Thunderfire Cannons.

So, as you can see it's not a simple case of "Take any special rule from any other army and grey knights have it. And its cheaper. And better."

I'm not saying they aren't powerful and cool, but there are a ton of things you don't get as GK. In general I have observed them to be fairly well balanced with other tier 1 armies, but sometimes they get monkey stomped by Eldar and Tau.

I have to agree with meltedwing. Every army has special stuff. Admittedly, Eldar REALLY need a new codex, but they also have special stuff that GK (or anybody else) don't like holofields. GK are supposed to be ultra elite demon hunters. Some things in the list may be under-pointed, but others are over, such as the upgrade costs for Inquisition warbands. And for that matter, who ever heard of an inquisitor without an option for personal field invulnerable armor saves?

Every army has cheese. How about the new necrons ability to make your own guys attack themselves in CC? Ever watched a Hive Tyrant slash itself to death instead of attacking the enemy?

[Angelwing]

It has to be said, I've had a few groans from opponents when I pull out my knights, but then they realise it's still my old daemonhunters army, so no transports, no dreadknights, no twin auto cannon dreadnoughts and so on, they actually have a good game. Sure, most of my strike squad chaps have halberds (because thats what the model came with..) and I'll use every advantage my models come with, but the games are not walkovers for me in the slightest.
I also use a vindicare. I used him all the time in codex daemonhunters and he was awful. I'm going to enjoy using him now when he can actually achieve something before the enemy gets wise and blasts him to bits.

TLDR: in the pregame talk with your opponent (people still do that right?) ask greyknight players to tone it down a bit by swapping out some of the gittish stuff. I think you will find you will both have a better game.

[Sami]

Those issues in full:

Units: Corteaz, Crowe, Draigo
Wargear: Psybolt ammo
Powers: Warp Quake

The 3 special characters break the codex, allowing you to field Henchmen, Purifiers and Paladins as Troops respectively. What should be units fighting over the Elite slots can suddenly be spammed and all are scoring. Cleansing Flame isn't so bad when you can only take 3 units of Purifiers max, which cuts out 3 Psyflemen and is a big dent in your points allowance when you still need Troops. DCA points are absolutely fine when the only time you will see them is if an Inquisitor is taken as an HQ choice, at which point there will only be one unit (per Inquisitor). Paladins I can't take seriously as I play DE, but the above applies to them as well. Dropping 55 points on 2W terminators becomes a very tough decision when you still need to budget for Troops.

Psybolt Ammo is fine on normal squads. Perhaps a slight price increase, but I don't have too many issues with it. However, it is horrifically underpriced on vehicles. 5 points to give +1S on weapons that are twin-linked anyway, and can now punch through light armour vehicles with even more ease is daft. It needs a massive price hike so taking it is more of a tactical choice and not an auto-include. Then again, IMO Dreadnoughts and Razorbacks are too cheap in general.

Warp Quake is just dumb because it completely screws over any chance Daemons might have. GK are meant to be the best at fighting Daemons. This does not mean that they must auto-win against them.

GK infantry have some big disadvantages in the fact that all of their shooting is capped at 24". However, the 48" shooting on their vehicles (all at +1S) more than makes up for this. Combined with being able to spam elite units as Troops and you have some big issues. Without the special characters, it's nearly balanced.

[Bunnahabhain]

I'd add Fortitude to that list as well.

The ability to make your vehicles virtually immune to shaken and stunned, with only a very unlikely downside, for next to nothing? Really?

[Draconis]

According to all the fluff that has ever been about them they are supposed to be the Best space marines in the galaxy, period. However there is one thing in the codex that infuriated me beyond all that has ever been...anywhere. To think that a Grey Knight Grand Master could carve his name into the chest of a Primarch, let alone a Primarch who has been granted Daemonhood, is the biggest joke in the history of this game. There isn't anything that even compares to how ludicrous that is. I had though about building an army of them and after reading that one thing not only did I not buy the army, I have made it my personal goal to crush every Grey Knight player that I run into.

As far as them being underpriced and overpowered yes they are all of that. Purifiers and the Draigowing alone are enough to infuriate most people. If the Vindicare only got one shot of each type of its special ammo then it wouldn't be bad. Thats how it was before. Nowadays the bastard can sit in the top of a building and blow up a Land Raider every turn it can shoot, which is stupid OP.

This was mistaken. Carving your name into someones heart is a meaning. I caught on after playing some video games where they referenced it and some books. It means to make sure they never forget you. As in, if I wrecked your car, torched your house, i carved my name on your heart. you'll never forget it.

All rules-issues aside they are very well represented. I don't know if it can be blamed on the "flavour of the month"-effect, but they have sky-rocketed in popularity. I think a lot of it comes from the fact they are the most "elite" army out there, which apparently is in high demand.

I understand not wanting to spend a fortune on a horde army, I understand not wanting to spend a life-time painting your force, but the model count in lists out there is pretty crazy. In a meta where special characters tend to change the force organization chart around, seeing what could readily be identified as actual "troops" is getting rarer! I think this is kind of a shame, every model you field shouldn't need to have their unique special rules. Call me old fashioned, but I like to see some actual grunts on the table.

Theres nothing "elite" about them. They are easy to play. Point and click is the term I'm thinking of. It doesn't take any elite skills. Now fluff wise, yeah, they are elite.

And the one part that really turned me off was when they sacrificed sisters of battle to bathe in their blood....really? so youre saying untouchable, uncorruptable, psychic grey knights are less holy than SoBs? You can't even be corrupted, why would you need the extra protection from daemonic influence?

[Iron_Lord]

Being immune to corruption doesn't make you immune to mind-affecting powers.

Tzeentch daemons can still use that illusion power that makes you shoot your own allies, on the Grey Knights.

Skarbrand's Rage Embodied rule can still affect them.

So if they were protecting themselves from "the Rage" by a magic ritual that required holy blood- it makes sense.

They themselves aren't "holy enough" for their own blood to do it. Plus thanks to all that engineering it's not exactly human blood anymore.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

I'd add...to that list as well.

Unfortunately the list of screwed up stuff in the Grey Knight codex is quite daunting. In the other top-tier codexes it's just a few things. With Grey Knights it's probably easier to mention the relatively balanced stuff, like the basic Troop terminator unit.

[Renka]

Theres nothing "elite" about them. They are easy to play. Point and click is the term I'm thinking of. It doesn't take any elite skills. Now fluff wise, yeah, they are elite.

Elite refers to the actual units themselves, not the player.

See the this post for example:

Unfortunately the list of screwed up stuff in the Grey Knight codex is quite daunting. In the other top-tier codexes it's just a few things. With Grey Knights it's probably easier to mention the relatively balanced stuff, like the basic Troop terminator unit.

There is now an army that have basic, Troop Terminators. I mean... Why even have a Force Organization Chart?

[Sami]

I'd add Fortitude to that list as well.

The ability to make your vehicles virtually immune to shaken and stunned, with only a very unlikely downside, for next to nothing? Really?

In comparison to the other stuff, Fortitude is nothing :P.

Still do find it amusing that the melee weapons of choice for an anti-daemon army list don't work against daemons, and in fact some of them become tougher when hit by them. Power/Force Weapons against models with invul saves and eternal warrior. Genius!

I think the main reason for the sheer volume of GK hate is that there is something in there that screws over pretty much every army going, and unlike odd-ball pieces of wargear this is the bread and butter stuff that you'll find in most GK lists. Mech guard don't seem to have too much of an issue with them as they can blow the infantry off the table from a safe range, but then mech guard doesn't have too much of an issue against anyone :P

edit: Renka, the Troop terminators are actually balanced, as they're stuck with 24" weapons like all the other infantry and don't have access to Storm Shields and the like. Put it this way: you never see Troop terminators on the field, as all 3 elites-turned-troops are superior.

[Latro_]

40K Stopped being a balanced game (if it ever was) before GK, they were just the death blow to it. Tournaments are not really worth much as a concept, playing for fun should really be your goto mode when thinking about 40k these days.

To the OP if you wanna collect them go for it but make an army on the models you like instead of some boring min/max internet list that yes will win you 90% of games with minimum effort but be about as rwarding as running against midgets in the 100 metres hurdles.

Sadly folks think they are good 40k players these days because they take 10 razor backs and roll dice... yawn. Keep it fun I say .

[Freman Bloodglaive]

This was mistaken. Carving your name into someones heart is a meaning. I caught on after playing some video games where they referenced it and some books. It means to make sure they never forget you. As in, if I wrecked your car, torched your house, i carved my name on your heart. you'll never forget it.

Technically yes, it has a metaphorical meaning. However the issue is that Draigo carved his predecessor's name onto Mortarian's heart. It doesn't read as a metaphor, because just having Draigo beat Mortarian like the proverbial red-headed stepchild wouldn't cause the Primarch to think fearfully of the previous Grand Master whom he'd already killed.

Let's face it, Draigo is a blasphemy.

As for the Coteaz issue. Yes, henchman spam is annoying, but even without that look at his abilities and stats and take him just as an HQ in a normal army. For between 99 and 101 points you get hammerhand, sanctuary, dark excommunication along with his spy network and I've been expecting you. He can even ride in a Rhino, which puts him head and shoulders above any of the Grey Knight special characters.

If I were playing Grey Knights he'd be my default HQ.

Grey Knights have a lot of strengths, and their biggest weakness is that you just might die of boredom either playing with them, or playing against them. "Hmm, so you have a silver marine with a storm bolter and a force weapon, okay, and you have another silver marine with a storm bolter and a force weapon... and... and... and..."

Of course the biggest problem is that because Grey Knights are now the default Marine powerhouse list, any subsequent army has to be built to beat them, which doesn't bode well for less powerful armies like... well... everything else.