What's the beef with Grey Knights?

[Getz]

Frankly, if you run a horde of unarmored troops into a unit of purifiers and expect to win, they you are a player who needs more experience and better strategies.

If you run a one trick pony army that only takes hordes of unarmored infantry and expect to beat down a purifier list then you probably need to rethink your list.

I don't think you've been following the thread of the conversation. The discussion of cleansing flame was prompted by Dazza612 claiming that it wasn't very good because it allowed an armour save. Nobody claimed they were invicible (my experience is that they go splat pretty much like every other MEQ when hit by ordnance) but there's no denying that they're damn dangerous in assault because they have the wargear to fight elite infantry and monsterous creatures, and cleansing flame to wipe out hordes. Most assault units are specialised for dealing with one threat or the other - not all at them at the same time (oh, and did I mention they're a good shooting unit too?).

You also seem to woefully ignorant of what other armies have to fight with. Orks, for example, either have large numbers of low save infantry who get boned by cleansing flame (Boyz) or small numbers of multi-wound pseudo characters who get boned by force weapons (Nobz). They do not have a middle ground and about the only things in the Ork army that can take on Purifiers in combat with any chance of success are Deff Dredds and Killa Kans, but even then you can have a couple of Hammers in the squad as a contingency plan, and that's assuming you don't just blow them away first with your Psycannons.

Does that mean Orks cannot ever beat Purifiers - of course not. I can think of several ways of tackling them with the Ork codex, but they mostly revolve around taking specific, otherwise non-optimal units like Looted Wagons with Boomguns or Flashgitz which in a competitive setting will weaken me against everyone else - that said, everyone else will probably also be playing Grey Knights...

Tyranids are even worse off as they tend to rely on Genestealers to tackle hard targets that can't be swamped with gaunts and their firepower isn't really strong enough to kill large numbers of MEQs on demand. Much like Orks they have little choice but to play to your strengths. I'll grant you that IG, on the other hand, would never assault you and if you made it into assault with them would just feed you ten men and get back to shooting at you.

[Getz]

Fireknife XV-8's. (edit: I missed the CC part of your statement. Fireknife XV-8's own purifier face if you aren't talking about starting in CC)

I wouldn't be so sure. A squad of Crisis suits only amount to six wounds, if the Purifiers are equipped with psycannons they can easily outshoot the Crisis suits is the can get in range. The suits do have a range advantage, but they're restricted to using their missile pods if they want to take advantage of it. even with favourable dice that will only net them a kill a turn and whilst constantly falling back might sound fine in a duel, on an actual table top it's a pretty worthless strategy - sooner or later the Purifiers will get within 24 inches and unless they have been unlucky with their armour saves, when they do so they'll be unleashing a whole lot of hurt on the suits.

Your knowledge of Space Wolves fail... your argument is pathetic.

Actually no, I've checked the codexes and he seems to be right. Care to explain why you think he isn't?

[meltedwing]

I don't think you've been following the thread of the conversation. The discussion of cleansing flame was prompted by Dazza612 claiming that it wasn't very good because it allowed an armour save. Nobody claimed they were invicible (my experience is that they go splat pretty much like every other MEQ when hit by ordnance) but there's no denying that they're damn dangerous in assault because they have the wargear to fight elite infantry and monsterous creatures, and cleansing flame to wipe out hordes. Most assault units are specialised for dealing with one threat or the other - not all at them at the same time (oh, and did I mention they're a good shooting unit too?).

You also seem to woefully ignorant of what other armies have to fight with. Orks, for example, either have large numbers of low save infantry who get boned by cleansing flame (Boyz) or small numbers of multi-wound pseudo characters who get boned by force weapons (Nobz). They do not have a middle ground and about the only things in the Ork army that can take on Purifiers in combat with any chance of success are Deff Dredds and Killa Kans, but even then you can have a couple of Hammers in the squad as a contingency plan, and that's assuming you don't just blow them away first with your Psycannons.

Does that mean Orks cannot ever beat Purifiers - of course not. I can think of several ways of tackling them with the Ork codex, but they mostly revolve around taking specific, otherwise non-optimal units like Looted Wagons with Boomguns or Flashgitz which in a competitive setting will weaken me against everyone else - that said, everyone else will probably also be playing Grey Knights...

Tyranids are even worse off as they tend to rely on Genestealers to tackle hard targets that can't be swamped with gaunts and their firepower isn't really strong enough to kill large numbers of MEQs on demand. Much like Orks they have little choice but to play to your strengths. I'll grant you that IG, on the other hand, would never assault you and if you made it into assault with them would just feed you ten men and get back to shooting at you.

Man, you guys really want to have your whine cake and eat it too.

You can't keep granting the GK unit every option contingent upon what the other army is throwing at them.

First it's "10 halberds will eff you" and then "they'll also have a halberd" and "if you survive their psycannons" How many models do you think is meant when you say 10 man? If you're going to throw 2 hammers and 4 psycannons in a unit of purifiers you only have 4 halberds. Seriously... make up your minds.

[meltedwing]

I wouldn't be so sure. A squad of Crisis suits only amount to six wounds, if the Purifiers are equipped with psycannons they can easily outshoot the Crisis suits is the can get in range. The suits do have a range advantage, but they're restricted to using their missile pods if they want to take advantage of it. even with favourable dice that will only net them a kill a turn and whilst constantly falling back might sound fine in a duel, on an actual table top it's a pretty worthless strategy - sooner or later the Purifiers will get within 24 inches and unless they have been unlucky with their armour saves, when they do so they'll be unleashing a whole lot of hurt on the suits.

On an actual table top I wouldn't throw a single unit of suits at a single unit of purifers. I would throw pretty much everything I have at the most relevant threat until it's dead, then move to the next threat. So on the turn I'm whiping purifiers off the board, they would likely be eating a whole lot more than what one unit of suits can throw out. Not to mention I can wall hop with my suits so that only "I" get to take shots while my purifier opponent has to foot slog his way to me and by the time he gets anywhere near me I'm now issuing rapidfire plasma. There is really no realistic way a unit of purifiers would ever get to my suits alive. Maybe if I was having a tremendously bad dice day.

As far as educating people on how to play space wolves, I have no interest in teaching someone who is being a jerk how to play spacewolves. I was asked for two units that can defeat and equal number of points in purifiers and I did. The fact that he's unaware of how is not my problem.

[Getz]

Man, you guys really want to have your whine cake and eat it too.

You can't keep granting the GK unit every option contingent upon what the other army is throwing at them.

First it's "10 halberds will eff you" and then "they'll also have a halberd" and "if you survive their psycannons" How many models do you think is meant when you say 10 man? If you're going to throw 2 hammers and 4 psycannons in a unit of purifiers you only have 4 halberds. Seriously... make up your minds.

Again with the not reading what we're actually writing. At what point did I specify that the whole squad had halberd? Other people may have been working on that assumption in different lines of discussion, but I wasn't. Instead, I was saying that a Purifier squad can have it all at no real cost in capability.

If you have four psycannons, it becomes a fearsome shooting unit, if you throw in a hammer then it has a contingency against being locked down in assault by walkers and it can still have five halberd giving you majority initiative of 6 (hich is important for sweeping advances) and 10+ I6 force weapons attacks against whatever ails you in assault. Whilst the unit is pretty expensive, this is a squad that can lay down substantial amounts of anti-infantry firepower on the move, kill AV14 tanks with shooting and in assault, kill hordes with a psychic power, Instant kill monstrous creatures, multi-wound infantry and characters and mess up elite assault infantry thanks to half it's attacks going at I6 and ignoring armour saves. It's not a jack of all trades, it's a master of all trades - and by investing in a relatively inexpensive character you can take it as a Troops choice.

[Draconis]

I believe the Cleansing flame was being used as an example of how they hose horde armies while still having force weapons to use vs. Power armored enemies.

I don't think you've been following the thread of the conversation. The discussion of cleansing flame was prompted by Dazza612 claiming that it wasn't very good because it allowed an armour save. Nobody claimed they were invicible (my experience is that they go splat pretty much like every other MEQ when hit by ordnance) but there's no denying that they're damn dangerous in assault because they have the wargear to fight elite infantry and monsterous creatures, and cleansing flame to wipe out hordes. Most assault units are specialised for dealing with one threat or the other - not all at them at the same time (oh, and did I mention they're a good shooting unit too?).

You also seem to woefully ignorant of what other armies have to fight with. Orks, for example, either have large numbers of low save infantry who get boned by cleansing flame (Boyz) or small numbers of multi-wound pseudo characters who get boned by force weapons (Nobz). They do not have a middle ground and about the only things in the Ork army that can take on Purifiers in combat with any chance of success are Deff Dredds and Killa Kans, but even then you can have a couple of Hammers in the squad as a contingency plan, and that's assuming you don't just blow them away first with your Psycannons.

Does that mean Orks cannot ever beat Purifiers - of course not. I can think of several ways of tackling them with the Ork codex, but they mostly revolve around taking specific, otherwise non-optimal units like Looted Wagons with Boomguns or Flashgitz which in a competitive setting will weaken me against everyone else - that said, everyone else will probably also be playing Grey Knights...

Tyranids are even worse off as they tend to rely on Genestealers to tackle hard targets that can't be swamped with gaunts and their firepower isn't really strong enough to kill large numbers of MEQs on demand. Much like Orks they have little choice but to play to your strengths. I'll grant you that IG, on the other hand, would never assault you and if you made it into assault with them would just feed you ten men and get back to shooting at you.

and yet they all missed the original point. the purifiers are ap4. and the OP said horde armies. that squad would eat my entire army of nids up from the get go. ive honestly gotten burnt out on the game just because of the favoritism. there is certainly power creep, and its all shared by marine armies.

[Vaktathi]

On an actual table top I wouldn't throw a single unit of suits at a single unit of purifers. I would throw pretty much everything I have at the most relevant threat until it's dead, then move to the next threat.

A pretty vague and meaningless statement. That's simply a logical thing to do, it doesn't really address the purifiers.

So on the turn I'm whiping purifiers off the board, they would likely be eating a whole lot more than what one unit of suits can throw out.

In which case the suits themselves aren't really a match for them. Keep in mind, the GK army will also have more than just the purifiers as well, so at this point we're not really in the original arena here.

Not to mention I can wall hop with my suits so that only "I" get to take shots while my purifier opponent has to foot slog his way to me and by the time he gets anywhere near me I'm now issuing rapidfire plasma.

That's expecting to be able to have terrain that A: completely blocks LoS (not something that's always common on many if not most 5E tables) and B: Is fortuitously situated along the Purifiers line of advance with nothing obstructing your firing lanes and they don't have much they can do to mitigate it. This is also assuming there isn't terrain for the Purifiers to take advantage of themselves. If the suits to rapidfire plasma range, then you've already been in range of the purifier's own weaponry and taking fire for at least 1 turn.

There is really no realistic way a unit of purifiers would ever get to my suits alive. Maybe if I was having a tremendously bad dice day.

Basically it's reading like you're assuming pretty much all the stars line up just as you need them (terrain, LoS, etc) and the Purifier squad is feeding itself into your guns without making it's own use of terrain or firepower, factoring in the rest of the Tau army and disregarding the additional GK forces.

Does this mean the Purifier's have the clear advantage here? No, but you're assuming an awful lot is going right for the Tau and nothing for the GK's.

[meltedwing]

A pretty vague and meaningless statement. That's simply a logical thing to do, it doesn't really address the purifiers.

In which case the suits themselves aren't really a match for them. Keep in mind, the GK army will also have more than just the purifiers as well, so at this point we're not really in the original arena here.

That's expecting to be able to have terrain that A: completely blocks LoS (not something that's always common on many if not most 5E tables) and B: Is fortuitously situated along the Purifiers line of advance with nothing obstructing your firing lanes and they don't have much they can do to mitigate it. This is also assuming there isn't terrain for the Purifiers to take advantage of themselves. If the suits to rapidfire plasma range, then you've already been in range of the purifier's own weaponry and taking fire for at least 1 turn.

Basically it's reading like you're assuming pretty much all the stars line up just as you need them (terrain, LoS, etc) and the Purifier squad is feeding itself into your guns without making it's own use of terrain or firepower, factoring in the rest of the Tau army and disregarding the additional GK forces.

Does this mean the Purifier's have the clear advantage here? No, but you're assuming an awful lot is going right for the Tau and nothing for the GK's.

A. I've never seen a 5th ed table that didn't have plenty of ruins on it. B. I didn't change the scenario, he did. Perhaps you forgot to read the post I was replying to. C. When I'm talking about what the suits will do to the purifiers (by themselves) i'm going back to the original scenario and not continuing the "in a real game" scenario. D. I'm not assuming anything that is right to assume. IE. I assume there will be terrain consistent with what is always on the board whenever I play 40k.

I'm not talking about a "stars all lined up" scenario here. I'm being realistic. "stars all lined up" would be a situation where his dice hate him and my dice are loaded. That is not what I was presenting in this situation.

[The Red Pilgrim]

Your knowledge of Space Wolves fail... your argument is pathetic.

How, exactly, is he wrong? Everything he said - down to the points - is dead on.

Again, you keep talking, but can't back anything up.

[Getz]

On an actual table top I wouldn't throw a single unit of suits at a single unit of purifers. I would throw pretty much everything I have at the most relevant threat until it's dead, then move to the next threat. So on the turn I'm whiping purifiers off the board, they would likely be eating a whole lot more than what one unit of suits can throw out.

The scenario was one on one - changing the rules of the game won't help you - besides, you're ignoring that the GK has an entire army to play with now.

Not to mention I can wall hop with my suits so that only "I" get to take shots while my purifier opponent has to foot slog his way to me and by the time he gets anywhere near me I'm now issuing rapidfire plasma. There is really no realistic way a unit of purifiers would ever get to my suits alive. Maybe if I was having a tremendously bad dice day.

Look, this only works if you have an infinite table and the terrain is all set up in your favour. I play Tau, I've played Tau ever since they came out - I know that what you're describing here only works in theory. In practice you either run out of space or run out of cover - or heaven forbid the enemy decides to run for a few turns to close the gap. Further, the moment I get to use my plasma rifles he gets to use his Psycannons. Eight BS4, S7 rending shots will easily do as much damage as three BS3 S6 AP2 shots, and I'm not even factoring in the stormbolters and the fact that he has four more wounds total and six of them are ablative. It would be a long and dull fight, and the Crisis suits could (perhaps even should) win it, but it would be far from a forgone conclusion.

As far as educating people on how to play space wolves, I have no interest in teaching someone who is being a jerk how to play spacewolves. I was asked for two units that can defeat and equal number of points in purifiers and I did. The fact that he's unaware of how is not my problem.

Well, the onus is on you to either back up your statement or stop trolling, because I am reasonably familiar with both armies and I don't see how the GH's in particular are supposed to win outside flukey dice.

[meltedwing]

Further, the moment I get to use my plasma rifles he gets to use his Psycannons.

If you play Tau, how are you failing to understand the power of JSJ suits? I shoot you, you don't get to shoot. It's not rocket science.

[Getz]

Because if I'm just within 24" to use my plasma rifles, and then jump back 6" to 30" away, he can walk forward 6" making the range just under 24" again and shoot me with his 24" range assault weapons. You're quite right, it's not rocket science - it's simple maths.

I am well aware of the strengths and weaknesses of JSJ suits. As I said before, what you are describing only works indefinitely in theory. On an actual table top you can't withdraw forever. For starters, by constantly withdrawing you are actually letting the Purifier squad determine where you end up. If he starts in the middle of the table and advances on you relentlessly he can use it's movement to push you into a corner of the table, whereupon you have to break out through his ranged weapon danger-zone before he closes to assault range

[Kevlar]

Because if I'm just within 24" to use my plasma rifles, and then jump back 6" to 30" away, he can walk forward 6" making the range just under 24" again and shoot me with his 24" range assault weapons. You're quite right, it's not rocket science - it's simple maths.

I think most people jump out of line of sight behind a rock or a wall or something.

[meltedwing]

Because if I'm just within 24" to use my plasma rifles, and then jump back 6" to 30" away, he can walk forward 6" making the range just under 24" again and shoot me with his 24" range assault weapons. You're quite right, it's not rocket science - it's simple maths.

Ok, clearly you completely failed to read what I wrote. I was talking about wall hopping. I wouldn't be jumping 6" back to get to 30" distance, I'd be hopping 6" (or less) back to break LOS.

If you're going to argue with me this vehemently and accuse me of not reading, perhaps you should ensure that you are at least not doing what you are accusing me of.

Until you, that are arguing with me, can go back, read and comprehend what I wrote, please feel free not to reply any further. As is, you're just making fools of yourselves and ensuring that anyone who reads this thread is utterly and completely aware of how you completely fail to grasp the game of 40k.

As long as you continue to blurt out ill conceived gibberish and claim it is irrefutable proof that I am wrong, I will refrain from discussing this with you futher.

If you can manage to put together a well thought out response that actually shows that you have some meaningful understanding of the situation then perhaps I will reply.

Good evening.

[Getz]

I think most people jump out of line of sight behind a rock or a wall or something.

That assumes that there will always be LoS blocking cover to hide behind whilst moving away from the enemy. Otherwise you end up tied to a single piece of cover - in which case, once he gets close enough (or more realistically, flanks your position) no amount of fancy maneuvering will prevent you getting shot up.

Ok, clearly you completely failed to read what I wrote. I was talking about wall hopping. I wouldn't be jumping 6" back to get to 30" distance, I'd be hopping 6" (or less) back to break LOS.

If you're going to argue with me this vehemently and accuse me of not reading, perhaps you should ensure that you are at least not doing what you are accusing me of.

Blah blah blah, you clearly think you are very clever, but the failure was yours, not mine. You quoted a specific sentence from my post referring to ranges and plasma rifles - naturally I assumed that you were still referring to that specific instance. If you cannot communicate clearly then it is no fault of mine if I misunderstand you.

Until you, that are arguing with me, can go back, read and comprehend what I wrote, please feel free not to reply any further. As is, you're just making fools of yourselves and ensuring that anyone who reads this thread is utterly and completely aware of how you completely fail to grasp the game of 40k.

Yeah, yeah. Childish insults but still nothing to back up your claims. Look Sunshine, I've actually tried to talk though this with you in a reasonable manner. I haven't called you names and I've explained why I think you're wrong - you just throw back abuse and act like petulant teenager. By the tenor of you comments I seriously doubt you've played many games at all, because literally no Tau player with any experience would be stupid enough to think that simply backing up or JSJ into cover will save you forever against an enemy with freedom of movement - your plan only works if the Grey Knights aren't allowed to move at all or the table is specifically set up for your advantage. You say I'm making a fool of myself - well, if people honestly think I'm talking from my behind I invite them to say so, but honestly kid, I wouldn't hold your breath.

As long as you continue to blurt out ill conceived gibberish and claim it is irrefutable proof that I am wrong, I will refrain from discussing this with you futher.

Mate, nobody here but you thinks you're right. Doesn't that tell you something?

If you can manage to put together a well thought out response that actually shows that you have some meaningful understanding of the situation then perhaps I will reply.

Good evening.

Please, do me a favour and just don't reply.

[Vaktathi]

A. I've never seen a 5th ed table that didn't have plenty of ruins on it.

I have. Most people don't routinely play on tables with tons of 3"+ height terrain, they may have a few, but not by any means plentiful or even present. Not every table is the ruins of Stalingrad, many may be marshes, forests (with tree stands you can see through), cratered no-man's lands where cover is primarily vehicle wrecks, etc. Even with ruins, quite often, it's possible to see through parts of many buildings to engage units on the other side. Getting a cover save for your suits is likely something you can rely on, blocking LoS entirely to 3" tall 40mm models is not by any means always possible. Without being able to rely on blocking LoS entirely, and without significant assurance that the Purifiers aren't going to themselves be able to stay out of terrain and/or LoS, your scenario falls apart.

For many 25% terrain tables, in fact most, terrain you'll be reliably able to hide completely behind isn't always available or where you need it. If you've ever been to a major tournament event, such will in fact be rather rare, especially outside the table center, the big stuff will usually be used to cockblock Leman Russ tanks from shooting across the board and get stuck in the middle, not necessarily in the deployment zones.


Stalingrad tables may be the norm for *you*, but not by any means for everyone nor should they be assumed to be the norm. Even when they are, you have to assume that you won't have shots to the Purifiers or that they'll be able to claim cover saves against your AP2 shooting.

C. When I'm talking about what the suits will do to the purifiers (by themselves) i'm going back to the original scenario and not continuing the "in a real game" scenario. D. I'm not assuming anything that is right to assume. IE. I assume there will be terrain consistent with what is always on the board whenever I play 40k.

I'm not talking about a "stars all lined up" scenario here. I'm being realistic. "stars all lined up" would be a situation where his dice hate him and my dice are loaded. That is not what I was presenting in this situation.

You're assuming there is lots of LoS blocking terrain you can hop over and behind that will completely block LoS where you need it, and that there will be little or not terrain either blocking LoS to the purifiers or providing a cover save. That's a pretty "stars lined up" scenario. None those things are necessarily true. Many tables conform perfectly to terrain guidelines or exceed it that will not provide you with that setup that you are relying on. I just played on one last weekend with my IG and almost got pooched because I couldn't make full use of my guns until the enemy had closed and was within range themselves with their much shorter ranged weaponry due to lots of LoS blocking terrain in the center and relatively little tall terrain in the deployment zones.

[mercury14]

In general I have observed them to be fairly well balanced with other tier 1 armies, but sometimes they get monkey stomped by Eldar and Tau.

This is exactly right. As an Eldar player I'm 6-0-0 against GK and I think only one of those matches was a close call. I control the flow of battle and cover the objectives much better than GK. And I have no problem shooting them off the map with or without Doom.

It's so easy that I intentionally weaken my lists when I play against GK. Bringing 2-3 Fire Prisms (S9 insta-squishing AP2 blasts) just vaporized Paladins way too easily. So then I started bringing squads of War Walkers and Vipers but S6 spamming them off the map was also too easy. Fire Dragons eat Dreadknights (and the rest of the GK codex) for lunch too...

Then I tried a list centered about three squads of Dire Avengers with Doom/bladestorm, which typically only kills 1-2 Paladins. But then I assault them and watch them kill like one Dire Avenger per round due to Defend and a re-rollable 5++ save. While they're tied up I just go take the objectives and roll to a win.

Runes of Warding is also a killer against GK.

[meltedwing]

This is exactly right. As an Eldar player I'm 6-0-0 against GK and I think only one of those matches was a close call. I control the flow of battle and cover the objectives much better than GK. And I have no problem shooting them off the map with or without Doom.

It's so easy that I intentionally weaken my lists when I play against GK. Bringing 2-3 Fire Prisms (S9 insta-squishing AP2 blasts) just vaporized Paladins way too easily. So then I started bringing squads of War Walkers and Vipers but S6 spamming them off the map was also too easy. Fire Dragons eat Dreadknights (and the rest of the GK codex) for lunch too...

Then I tried a list centered about three squads of Dire Avengers with Doom/bladestorm, which typically only kills 1-2 Paladins. But then I assault them and watch them kill like one Dire Avenger per round due to Defend and a re-rollable 5++ save. While they're tied up I just go take the objectives and roll to a win.

Runes of Warding is also a killer against GK.

No doubt... right after the GK codex came out it was many games against Eldar that helped me refine my lists.

There is really nothing more frustrating as a GK player than being stripped of all your powers because a farseer is staying just out of range (so he can still fortune/doom/guide/whatever) in a transport that is nigh impossible to destroy. As a GK player, you either spend all game chasing him down and trying to kill him, or you accept that you are handicapped against Eldar and try to win without psyker powers.

Another big one that hurts is the pathfinders and their sniper rifles with 2+ cover saves. Those guys just ruin your lunch if they are placed properly.

[Kevlar]

This is exactly right. As an Eldar player I'm 6-0-0 against GK and I think only one of those matches was a close call. I control the flow of battle and cover the objectives much better than GK. And I have no problem shooting them off the map with or without Doom.

It's so easy that I intentionally weaken my lists when I play against GK. Bringing 2-3 Fire Prisms (S9 insta-squishing AP2 blasts) just vaporized Paladins way too easily. So then I started bringing squads of War Walkers and Vipers but S6 spamming them off the map was also too easy. Fire Dragons eat Dreadknights (and the rest of the GK codex) for lunch too...

Then I tried a list centered about three squads of Dire Avengers with Doom/bladestorm, which typically only kills 1-2 Paladins. But then I assault them and watch them kill like one Dire Avenger per round due to Defend and a re-rollable 5++ save. While they're tied up I just go take the objectives and roll to a win.

Runes of Warding is also a killer against GK.

Ah, so thats why Eldar are tearing it up in all the major tournaments. Or not. I don't see too many competitive paladin lists. How does your super Eldar fare against MSU henchmen/purifier in chimeras/razorbacks, with the obligatory psyrifle dreads? Somehow I don't think your prisms will earn much of their point value back before they get turned to slag.

[Vlad Urkana]

No doubt... right after the GK codex came out it was many games against Eldar that helped me refine my lists.

There is really nothing more frustrating as a GK player than being stripped of all your powers because a farseer is staying just out of range (so he can still fortune/doom/guide/whatever) in a transport that is nigh impossible to destroy. As a GK player, you either spend all game chasing him down and trying to kill him, or you accept that you are handicapped against Eldar and try to win without psyker powers.

Another big one that hurts is the pathfinders and their sniper rifles with 2+ cover saves. Those guys just ruin your lunch if they are placed properly.

That's still a very Rock-Paper-Scissors statement about GK though. There are *almost* always going to be armies that just roflstomp some other army out there, but the thing with GK's is that they have a strictly superior footing over comparatively more armies than the rest of the field. Both flavors of Eldar are in a unique position relative to GK's as they have access to gobs of high strength low AP weapons, are relatively accurate, and are mobile enough to out threat GK's. The only other armies out there that shred GK's at range (IG, Tau) don't have that same mobility to escape when the GK's go to close the gap and get in melee, even accounting for JSJ tactics with suits. Those armies also happen to be incredibly weak against all of the GK firepower. Then there are the armies that have a decent chance against GK's (SW, BA) and can build to beat them or possibly outplay them, although that is an uphill battle most of the time. Next there are armies that have a less than ideal chance (Orks, Chaos) to beat GK. And finally there are armies that have next to no chance and have to hope for horrible dice/favor of the Gods/freak weather to beath them (Tyranids, Daemons). These two I don't really blame on the GK as they should roflstomp Daemons a solid 75% of the time and bugs were the whipping child of Cruddance who decided that Eternal Warrior was just too OP to be in the same book as a Hive Tyrant. I can't say much to Necrons or SoB since I haven't had a chance/wanted to look at their books yet.

TLR There are the normal tiers of competitive armies who roughly balance with one another and then there are GK who are far and away the best out there; only having a couple of solid competitors, then having a good matchup against the rest of the field.