What's the beef with Grey Knights?

[Vaktathi]

One major issue with GKs is you can never adequately represent them and have it be balanced. The Grey Knights are a force that is supposed to be incredibly powerful. Far surpassing even normal marines. Now one could argue that Ward was successful in that regard and the Knights feel very powerful, but there's a problem. Namely there are other armies in this game. You can't have one army so above the others in terms of power and expect it to work out well for everyone. On the other hand, if Ward was somehow able to make them balanced and "fair" they wouldn't really be Grey Knights then, would they? They would just be weird looking normal marines and no one wants that either.

Well, they can be super powerful and still balanced, if they actually had limited numbers and weren't replete with long range anti-tank guns, and didn't have a plethora of weapons far more geared towards being effective against tanks and heavy infantry as opposed to being highly effective against daemons.

Part of this problem (though by no means the whole of it) has been the change in the nature of Force Weapons. They used to be specialized anti-daemon weapons that were very scary for Daemons be near, and now are no better than basic CC weapons against them.

[Dazza612]

Sure they are a very good codex but there are a hell of a lot of blood angels armies as well being taken to tournaments do you think they are broken as well. Personally I'd rather face a grey knight army than 19 str 8 missiles a turn shooting at 5 different targets with one of those units having the tank hunter rule. A pyscher which stops any psychic power on a 4 +, or a psychic abiliry which can instant kill lots of things within a 24 inch range except vehicles. Or how about fighting 6 vendettas, cheap psychers and masses of melta and plasma guns all in chimeras!! By the way what is so broken about purifiers. Yes they have force weapons but they're 24 point models and they die just as easily as a marine! And their cleansimg flame ability causes a wound on a 4+ you still get armour saves after that, you think many marines are going to die from this?

[Gunless Ganger]

By the way what is so broken about purifiers. Yes they have force weapons but they're 24 point models and they die just as easily as a marine! And their cleansimg flame ability causes a wound on a 4+ you still get armour saves after that, you think many marines are going to die from this?

I believe the Cleansing flame was being used as an example of how they hose horde armies while still having force weapons to use vs. Power armored enemies.

[The Red Pilgrim]

"Some guy I don't respect won a local tournament" is not a good reason to nerf an army. A Tau player won a tournament recently. Do you think Tau should be nerfed as well?

Maybe gk just clicked for those guys. Maybe their opponents were just terrible or having bad dice days. Frankly I've seen enough "gk vs..." games to know that they are not a point and click army. The only time any army is point and click is when the opponent player is terribad.

And who is going to "nerf" them, exactly? You seem determined to defend their blatant edge, out of fear of losing it. Which is silly, because lets be real, the codex is already out, and isn't going to be FAQ'd to be balanced. And with how long it takes to redo any given codex, they'll be absurd for years to come.

So, I guess what I'm saying is, you can stop being a Grey Knight apologist now. Defending their power-level with vague anecdotal evidence that doesn't hold up. Nobody is going to steal your thunder for some time.

[Craftworld]

And who is going to "nerf" them, exactly? You seem determined to defend their blatant edge, out of fear of losing it. Which is silly, because lets be real, the codex is already out, and isn't going to be FAQ'd to be balanced. And with how long it takes to redo any given codex, they'll be absurd for years to come.

So, I guess what I'm saying is, you can stop being a Grey Knight apologist now. Defending their power-level with vague anecdotal evidence that doesn't hold up. Nobody is going to steal your thunder for some time.

I think part of it is player ego. Who wants to admit that their army plays itself?

[Bunnahabhain]

Sure they are a very good codex but there are a hell of a lot of blood angels armies as well being taken to tournaments do you think they are broken as well. Personally I'd rather face a grey knight army than 19 str 8 missiles a turn shooting at 5 different targets with one of those units having the tank hunter rule. A pyscher which stops any psychic power on a 4 +, or a psychic abiliry which can instant kill lots of things within a 24 inch range except vehicles. Or how about fighting 6 vendettas, cheap psychers and masses of melta and plasma guns all in chimeras!! By the way what is so broken about purifiers. Yes they have force weapons but they're 24 point models and they die just as easily as a marine! And their cleansimg flame ability causes a wound on a 4+ you still get armour saves after that, you think many marines are going to die from this?

I'll assume, with the benefit of doubt, you're merely being silly, and not actively trolling.

What is broken about purifers? Sure, a wound on a 4+, with save allowed, isn't scary for 3+ or 2+ save units. For a unit of 30 Gaunts or Ork boys, losing ~12 before they even start to fight is scary. Let alone Genestealers, banshees, DE stuff, etc, that have poor saves but are lethal to marines in combat? Losing almost half the unit before they can strike isn't fun.

Grey Knights can spam chimeras with cheap, scoring, shooty content better than Guard. They can spam cheap psykers better than Guard. They can out do almost any force at almost any trick.

[Latro_]

Having not played WH regularly in my many years of gaming, what was the resolution to the other Mat Ward book of 'ffs' handled? Or is GK on a different level compared to how good daemons were in WH.

I seem to remember a lot of events banned them or somin?

[Getz]

By the way what is so broken about purifiers. Yes they have force weapons but they're 24 point models and they die just as easily as a marine! And their cleansimg flame ability causes a wound on a 4+ you still get armour saves after that, you think many marines are going to die from this?

Not many marines, no - but try piling a mob of 30 Orks into them. On average about twelve will die from cleansing flame alone. If the Orks do manage to stay at above ten models after combat, they'll then almost certainly loose another twelve (plus a number roughly equal to their actual combat losses) to fearlessness, almost certainly losing the entire squad - and if you manage to take them below ten models they either have to roll snake eyes on a ld test or almost inevitably get cut down (I2 v I6 sucks when you're trying not to get cut down after an assault). The same applies for Gaunts, or IG blob squads or someone that stupid enough to try piling in more than one squad of just about anything.

Purifiers basically wave a big, fat middle finger at any army that's based of hordes of lightly armoured infantry, and they aren't exactly terrible against MEQs when they show up in numbers either - If I piled a huge squad of 20 Khorne Beserkers into a Purifier squad Cleansing flame would probably kill three or four of them before Initiative even entered the equation - that's about as many as the Purifiers would kill with their halberds (before I got to strike back, natch). Admittedly, I'd expect the 'Zerkers to do some serious damage back, but if they loose the combat (which isn't unlikely, they don't have power weapons after all) they'll probably loose a couple more guys to fearlessness again.

[Scribe of Khorne]

Having not played WH regularly in my many years of gaming, what was the resolution to the other Mat Ward book of 'ffs' handled? Or is GK on a different level compared to how good daemons were in WH.

I seem to remember a lot of events banned them or somin?

They rewrote how some of the core rules behaved I believe (fear/terror?) really nerfing Daemons and VC I think.

[Kevlar]

The steadfast rule hurt demons too, since they aren't exactly cheap. Unlike Grey Knights who have some incredibly cheap power builds.

[meltedwing]

The fact of the matter is that anyone who's played against GK more than once or twice has realized that they are not as powerful as any of the whining in this thread indicates.

If you want to whine about an army, do it elsewhere.

Any army can be beaten. Any army can be uber powerful.

There has been more than enough information presented in this thread to show that GK are not the "all powerful" army that the whining would indicate.

Frankly, if you run a horde of unarmored troops into a unit of purifiers and expect to win, they you are a player who needs more experience and better strategies.

If you run a one trick pony army that only takes hordes of unarmored infantry and expect to beat down a purifier list then you probably need to rethink your list.

The Meta changes all the time, people come up with new lists and people complain that their old lists don't own face as much as they used to.

Get over it. GK are not the end all be all of 40k. Are they good? Yes. Are they a Tier 1 army? Yes. Did they just get updated within the past 18 months? Yes.

It's not like this doesn't happen every time a new codex comes out. BA go their new codex and people went insane with all the whining and complaining about how powerful they are. Same thing happened with the new Necron codex. The same thing will happen when the CSM codex comes out.

If you think that your whining is going to change anything, then by all means keep it up.

For those that think my stance on the matter is in the minority, then you clearly haven't talked with very many people because more than 90% of the people I talk with about GK understand quite well that they are as powerful as you should expect a recently updated army to be. Power creep is a fact, not a philosophy.

[Grimtuff]

Any army can be uber powerful.

Okay then, do it. Make an "A game" GK army and an "A game" Tau army (arguably the worst codex in 40k ATM) and let me know who comes out on top.

[meltedwing]

Too late Grim. It's already been done by me and several of my friends who are Tau players.

We had a guy in our store in Washington state who whined right about as hard as what is happening here. We challenged him to make the most "broken" GK army he could think of and he was tabled multiple times by Tau.

This is the same guy who won multiple games in a row against GK with his plague marines and then continued to whine about how horribly OP GK are.

Instead of asking me (someone you probably wouldn't trust) to do it, why don't you do it yourself and see what happens. In fact, why don't you write the GK list as broken as you can think of to make it, and then get someone else (who knows Tau) to write the Tau list and then play the game. Random for mission and deployment out of the core rule book and play the game.

Watch as your GK get slaughtered and maimed at the hands of plasma/rail spam despite the fact that all of your vehicles and troops were in cover.

Boggle as you realize that all the whining you were doing was pointless nonsense.

[The Red Pilgrim]

The fact of the matter is that anyone who's played against GK more than once or twice has realized that they are not as powerful as any of the whining in this thread indicates.

So no enlightening evidence then. Shame. I confess myself disappointed.

If you want to whine about an army, do it elsewhere.

Wait, so complaints regarding Grey Knights - have no place - in a thread discussing Grey Knights? I'm struggling to see your posts as anything but trolling with this kind of "logic". I mean really man, make an effort of some kind.

So on that note, while I was making a genuine effort to discuss this with you, I'm going to have to cut you off here - and ignore your further posts.

[Bunnahabhain]

Meltedwing, please name any unit you like, that can take on an roughly equivalent points value of purifiers with halberds in CC, and have a decent chance of winning. Double points if it isn't from elsewhere in the GK codex.

I don't think anyone in this thread has said they're totally unbeatable, all powerful or such like. What they have said is that they're too powerful, boring, and don't feel right. It's not just another new codex and it's overpowered whining- there was very little of that around the DE and necron books, quite a bit around Mr Wards previous try at marines +1, the Blood Angels, quite a bit around Space wolves, and a moderate amount around Guard and Codex Marines. As for the White dwarf codexs.... Oh and tyranids as well. They're definitely overpowered....
There are probably more complaints, justified or not, real or not about the Grey Knight book than all the rest of the 5th ed books put together.

EDIT For those who can't or won't read, highlighting to make it easier
Meltedwing, please name any unit you like, that can take on an roughly equivalent points value of purifiers with halberds in CC, and have a decent chance of winning. Double points if it isn't from elsewhere in the GK codex.

Yes, we know you can shoot them. Not every army can shoot down multiple units of marines, so they have to use CC.

[Overlord Krycis]

Okay then, do it. Make an "A game" GK army and an "A game" Tau army (arguably the worst codex in 40k ATM) and let me know who comes out on top.

Or an A game Nid army...

[Bunnahabhain]

Or an A game Nid army...

That's letting your pet tarantula loose on the table, and so ensuring your opponent won't go near it, isn't it? One bug I6 force weapons won't work on....

[meltedwing]

Meltedwing, please name any unit you like, that can take on an roughly equivalent points value of purifiers with halberds in CC, and have a decent chance of winning. Double points if it isn't from elsewhere in the GK codex.

Fireknife XV-8's. (edit: I missed the CC part of your statement. Fireknife XV-8's own purifier face if you aren't talking about starting in CC)

Next...

Oh my bad... I hadn't noticed the cc part of this statement.

Thunderwolf Cavalry (especially if the thunderwolves are charging)

Grey Hunters (especially if they have a powerfist in the group)

There's two.

Also:

Harlequins

Howling Banshees (this one would probably require that the banshees charge)

[Craftworld]

Grey Hunters (especially if they have a powerfist in the group)

Wait, what? Grey Hunters can beat a squad of Purifiers in CC? You're aware of what halberds actually do.. right?

[Grimtuff]

Fireknife XV-8's. (edit: I missed the CC part of your statement. Fireknife XV-8's own purifier face if you aren't talking about starting in CC)

Next...

Oh my bad... I hadn't noticed the cc part of this statement.

Thunderwolf Cavalry (especially if the thunderwolves are charging)

Grey Hunters (especially if they have a powerfist in the group)

There's two.

Both of the SW units mentioned will get wasted by the Purifiers. Say we have a max unit of Purifiers with Halberds, which is 260pts. Equivalent pts of TWC will be a max unit of 5 with 10 pts left over to spend on 2 Meltabombs or 1 Meltabomb and a MOTW. The Purifiers will strike at I6 and kills the TWC instantly with their NFW. You could go for 3 and have all of them with Storm Shields with 20pts left over. They'll be slightly more survivable but their damage output will be significantly less.

Same goes for the GH. So we have a unit of 10 with a WG with Power Fist (so roughly 180pts). 180pts of Purifiers (182 to be exact, 7 with Halberds) will wreck the GH before they even get to strike simply due to the amount of attacks and I6.


Your strawman fails.