What's the beef with Grey Knights?

[Dazza612]

How about thunder hammer and storm shield assault terminators or Ymgarl genestealers or blood angel assault marines, grey hunters. I'm sure there are other units which can do it but not familiar with other codexes.

[wyvirn]

Genestealers of all types take it hard against halberds or GK in cover =(

[mercury14]

Ah, so thats why Eldar are tearing it up in all the major tournaments.

Why make stupid comments like this? You know that's not what I suggested.

How does your super Eldar fare against MSU henchmen/purifier in chimeras/razorbacks, with the obligatory psyrifle dreads? Somehow I don't think your prisms will earn much of their point value back before they get turned to slag.

You think Eldar are particularly afraid of Dreads of any kind? Umm, no.

Purifiers don't scare Eldar.

Chimera/Razorback spam, yes that's a challenge.

[The Dude]

This thread is getting rather emotional. Please rein it back in, people.

The Dude
The Warseer Inquisition

[Dazza612]

I'll assume, with the benefit of doubt, you're merely being silly, and not actively trolling.

What is broken about purifers? Sure, a wound on a 4+, with save allowed, isn't scary for 3+ or 2+ save units. For a unit of 30 Gaunts or Ork boys, losing ~12 before they even start to fight is scary. Let alone Genestealers, banshees, DE stuff, etc, that have poor saves but are lethal to marines in combat? Losing almost half the unit before they can strike isn't fun.

Grey Knights can spam chimeras with cheap, scoring, shooty content better than Guard. They can spam cheap psykers better than Guard. They can out do almost any force at almost any trick.

No I'm not trolling. I used to be one of the people who wined about the grey knight codex when it came out then I realised how to beat it and have done so with my blood angel army! I have also seen orks smash grey knights and have seen nids beat grey knights as well, mech imperial guard does very well against them and space wolves can beat them as well, in fact deathwing would do well against them as well.

And 19 s4 templates or 19 s8 missiles aren't? How about the masses of shooting which imperial guard can put out with very cheap veterans with plasma guns/melta guns, scouting cheap vendettas which ar emobile gun platforms that carry troops as well and ridiculously good psykers! Look I'm not saying they're not a very good codex, they're definitely in the top 3, I just think that the massively slewed hatred against grey knights is unjustified.

Best way to kill purifiers is shoot the hell out of them and then once you have destroyed close to half the unit then charge and only if you have nothing left to shoot at them! Or how about nids swarming them with really really cheap gaunts, or lots of str 5 templates! To be fair as well the two codexes you mentioned aren't really great codexes and can't compete with most of the armies out let alone grey knights!

[Dazza612]

Genestealers of all types take it hard against halberds or GK in cover =(

You are using a specific one off scenario. Nids don't do very well against much that are in cover, nids don't do very well against many armies for that matter is it's the worst codex after sisters (which is a white dwarf codex). Don't get me wrong I think grey knights is in the top 3 codexes around and very good but they are very much beatable. A good grey knights player will not send them into close combat unless he has to, not because they're not good in combat just because they're better at shooting. Likewise an opponent should try and avoid close combat with them and shoot the hell out of them until they are weak enough to engage in close combat!

[scapegoatboy69]

Is that partially due to the low model count? I kinda prefer fewer models, so I can keep tabs on them more easily. I don't easily think in terms of 'units'.

Probably. I'm a DE player who doesn't do the whole spam Blasters and Venoms thing. That kinda leaves assaulting, 36" moves, and 25 point missile launchers to get the job done. I'm fine playing Hard Mode 40k.

I'm a big fan of maneuvering for advantage, setting up climactic assaults, and trying to out-think my opponent on the table top. The problem is, I haven't gotten to do those fun things in my games against Grey Knights. Out-thinking a transparent plan is kinda meh, DE's codex has nothing that can beat a strike squad with Halberds, and there aren't really isolated GK units to pick on.

In all of my previous games against GK it's just been a question of bringing the right wargear to the party or rolling enough dice. I'd like decisions made in game to be more important than they are in 40k. Grey Knights as a codex highlights this problem.

I think if people on here were truly honest with their W/L ratio in reference to GK, you'd see that the GK aren't as OP as some people indicate.

...blood of kittens, dude. Dey have ALL TEH REZULTZ! BoLS is an alright source too.

[DeviantApostle]

In short, GK is the 'easy mode' tournament army, and before the GK players get all up in arms about that statement please read the rest of what I have to say.

I'm not saying that GK is unbeatable or somehow 'lesser', I'm saying it's easy to understand and use for tournament play. It's also very forgiving a point efficient.

As soon as it hit the shelf, it was obvious that this is the THE Razorspam codex. It's everything about Razorspam that made it good dialed to 11. You don't need to worry about high AV or AP because not only do you have lascannons and TL Plasma Razors, all your guys have PWs. Don't have to worry about hordes because Purifiers. You like Long Fangs and Riflemen, combine them and have Psyriflemen. Hate MCs? Everything has Force Weapons. Old Razorspam had issues getting shaken, so Fortitude... and so on and so on and so on...

You can throw together a Razorspam GK list that can take on every other codex in the game... GREAT for torurnaments where you'll be expected to face many different armies and styles before the day's done. You can write a GK list that will ruin everyone's day, from hordes to deep strike to MC spam to transport spam to 3+ FNP. Also, it's a marine army, so it's resillient and forgiving of your mistakes (which you will make after hours and hours of gaming).

Newbies can pick up the army and compete, veterans can make it do acrobatics. Not only is the learning curve low (practically flat if you've been watching the tournament scene for the last few years), it's also a relatively cheap army to pick up and some builds make it even cheaper. It's also easy to assemble and paint. Low model count also makes your decisions easier and your turns quicker.

Is it any wonder everyone hates seeing GK? Not only are they usually the best represented army (bringing in the 'ugh, not another one!' factor on top of being another marine army), they're designed to mess with everyone's sthicks. Players of other marine books look at a bunch of their own guys only with S5 FWs and SBs for a couple of extra points. Players of Xeno books see yet another Razorspam list... only worse because everything throwing bullets hits harder for very little points wise.

What we have is a perfect confluence of factors that specifically plays into the tournament scene. Ironically, the OP issues aren't as big a deal to me because we've got plenty of other OP marine books that GK's toys kinda blend in.

[Bassik]

I play Grey Knights myself, but not the way people on the internet apear to play them. No spam, no psyflemen (A dreadnought without a DCCW is hardly any dreadnought at all!), just, you know, an army build around models I like. Is that so hard? Do we, as gamers, always have to take the best options, and judge armies only on their most powerfull lists?

People, we've done this before. I've been in the hobby for over ten years, and there's always this one army that people just can't stop whining about, because there are potential builds that are ridiculously broken. Also you never, ever encounter those builds unless you go to some hard-core tournament, while 40K is not a good tournament game, and never was.

So enjoy the game, play against Grey Knights, and if people do show up with these net lists, call them on it.
For the Emprah's sake, the game is designed for a cool evening with your mates, not to replace chess tournaments!

[Bunnahabhain]

How about thunder hammer and storm shield assault terminators or Ymgarl genestealers or blood angel assault marines, grey hunters. I'm sure there are other units which can do it but not familiar with other codexes.

You are using a specific one off scenario.

No you're the one using a specific scenario.

Against roughly equal points of purifiers... Grey hunters fail( see above), genestealers get nowhere. Blood angel assault troops ( I'll assume the FNP priest is there, and has not yet been sniped) will be messy. Probably comes down to who gets the charge. Without FNP, they'll fold like the Grey hunters. TH/SS terminators. I'll assume cheap ones... you're facing ~8 purifiers ( assume no power in play on either side..). Cleansing flame will do about 1/2 a wound, the halberds will do ~1 wound, and the other weapons do about ~1/2 a wound. 3 terminators left to strike back, kills 1-2 purifiers depending on if you got the charge. Neither side goes anywhere. Next turn~ 2 terminators die before they strike, 1 strikes back, kills ~1/2. Neither side runs. Turn 3. 1- 2 terminators dies, purifiers win

No I'm not trolling. I used to be one of the people who wined about the grey knight codex when it came out then I realised how to beat it and have done so with my blood angel army! I have also seen orks smash grey knights and have seen nids beat grey knights as well, mech imperial guard does very well against them and space wolves can beat them as well, in fact deathwing would do well against them as well.

And again, nobody has said they're unbeatable, just too strong.

Best way to kill purifiers is shoot the hell out of them and then once you have destroyed close to half the unit then charge and only if you have nothing left to shoot at them! Or how about nids swarming them with really really cheap gaunts,

You do know cleansing flame works just the same regardless of how many purifiers there are. It'll kill almost half the horde if they charge 1 or 10 purifiers

[Dazza612]

Wait, what? Grey Hunters can beat a squad of Purifiers in CC? You're aware of what halberds actually do.. right?

How many points is a purifier 24 points and a halberd is another 2 points. Grey hunters are 15 points so you can get 7 grey hunters with a power fist for the same cost as 5 purifiers all with halberds. On avg the purifiers hit with 5 attacks and kill 3. You then have 9 attacks coming back and 3 power fist attacks so combat res will be about the same unless the purifiers get hammerhand off, but you stop all psychic powers on a 4+.

[Dazza612]

Bunnahabain you took my 'specific scenario' example out of context the poster mentioned genestealers attacking purifiers in cover which obviously you wouldn't do with any nid as they don't have the equivalent of grenades!

7 purifiers with 2 psycannons, a master crafted hammer and 4 halberds cost 225 points you can get a lot of grey hunter for that and only 4 purifiers go before you do. Sure they have cleansing flame but then you don't have hammerhand or your force weapons and you have a rune priest which can stop cleansing flame on a 4+! Even if say the purifiers all survived wihout casualties and you failed to stop it and they passed their leadership on avg against a 10 man grey hunter squad it will kill 2-3 of them, not really game changing.

[lordbeefy]

What tickles me, and this is no personal slight on any person, is the use of such examples as 'show me any unit that can take on a unit of purifiers in cc and beat them' as an example of an army list being broken.

Let me explain, if i see a unit of purifiers coming my way, I dont try to take them in cc....thats THEIR territory, instead i shoot the sheet out of them before they get into cc with me. This is the same tactic i use against Death Company or indeed any of the major cc powered units. Why would I willingly put myself at a disadvantage in combat, its poor tactics.

Every army has strengths and weaknesses...GKs weakness that I see is far less anti AV14 ranged, but thats just me.

[Grimtuff]

How many points is a purifier 24 points and a halberd is another 2 points. Grey hunters are 15 points so you can get 7 grey hunters with a power fist for the same cost as 5 purifiers all with halberds. On avg the purifiers hit with 5 attacks and kill 3. You then have 9 attacks coming back and 3 power fist attacks so combat res will be about the same unless the purifiers get hammerhand off, but you stop all psychic powers on a 4+.

Since when do you get 3 PF attacks? You'll only get that with an attached Wolf Guard on the charge. A GH has 1 attack base and will not get a second one unless he has 2 Power Fists, which he cannot have.

[Dazza612]

I thought a grey hunter sgt have 2 attacks and don't they have counter attack. Grey hunter troops have pistol and ccw and counter attack.

[Grimtuff]

I thought a grey hunter sgt have 2 attacks and don't they have counter attack. Grey hunter troops have pistol and ccw and counter attack.

*facepalm*

Read the 5th ed rulebook and the SW codex next time champ. Then your argument may have a little more credibility.

[Dazza612]

And yes lordbeefy I have said that multiple times, shoot the hell out of them, then shoot again. Sure grey knights are incredibly powerful you just need to know how to beat them.

[Bunnahabhain]

What tickles me, and this is no personal slight on any person, is the use of such examples as 'show me any unit that can take on a unit of purifiers in cc and beat them' as an example of an army list being broken.

Let me explain, if i see a unit of purifiers coming my way, I dont try to take them in cc....thats THEIR territory, instead i shoot the sheet out of them before they get into cc with me. This is the same tactic i use against Death Company or indeed any of the major cc powered units. Why would I willingly put myself at a disadvantage in combat, its poor tactics.

Every army has strengths and weaknesses...GKs weakness that I see is far less anti AV14 ranged, but thats just me.

And if it was just one unit, you'd be absolutely correct. The trouble is, the chances are if you see one unit of purifiers, you'll see several more, and Crowe. You can't go ' I must shoot that dead right now' to half the opposite army. You can fault an opponent for not being able to kill one marine unit by shooting, but many forces rely on CC for a large part of their effect. The fault lies in the GK rules if it suddenly cripples a whole swath of other armies, especially if they can compete fairly well against other 'CC bias marines +1'

In a real game, you often don't have the luxury to ignore a scoring unit sitting in cover on a objective, you've got to kill it. If you don't it sits there, scores, and hits you with a load of S5-7 firepower.

[Dazza612]

*facepalm*

Read the 5th ed rulebook and the SW codex next time champ. Then your argument may have a little more credibility.

Ok my apologies I was off by one attack. As stated multiple times I wouldn't be charging purifiers with another elite unit. I would shoot the hell out of them. Then if there were 0-2 halberds left then charge if I absolutely had to!

[Grimtuff]

Ok my apologies I was off by one attack. As stated multiple times I wouldn't be charging purifiers with another elite unit. I would shoot the hell out of them. Then if there were 0-2 halberds left then charge if I absolutely had to!

See Bunna's post above yours to see why this does not work in practice.