Perils of the warp questions

[Empirespy]

I have a few questions about perils of the warp, the first of which came up this afternoon.

1. A space marine Librarian got a perils on snake eyes trying to cast force dome, does he get the 5++ save from the force dome against the perils attack.

2a. Does a Farseer's ghost helm count as a save? By which I mean can he stop a perils on a 3+ and if he fails go on to his 4++ (3++ if Eldrad) save against the perils?

2b. If a Farseer can take his inv save as well as his ghost helm save, and in the same turn had Fortune cast upon him (by himself, or another Farseer), what happens, do you just re-roll no matter the first result, or take the first result?

Thanks,
-Empirespy

[Bergen Beerbelly]

1) A space marine librarian would not get the 5++ save from the force dome against the perils attack because the perils of the Warp is happening at the exact same time as the spell is going off. If the spell happened and then you took a perils then I would think he would get the save

2) Yes, a farseer or Eldrad can use the Ghost Helm to stop the perils from happening and then go on to take his 4++ or 3++ invul save vs the perils if the Ghost Helm save is failed. But if he makes either of the invul saves he will have to re roll it. But not the Ghost Helm save. That is simply one roll, pass or fail.

2) Farseers and Eldrad cannot use fortune to re roll a failed invul save vs Perils of the Warp according to the current Eldar FAQ on GW's website.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

2) Farseers and Eldrad cannot use fortune to re roll a failed invul save vs Perils of the Warp according to the current Eldar FAQ on GW's website.

That's not true.

If a Farseer fails his Ghosthelm but already has Fortune from a previous casting, he can use it to re-roll the invulnerable save (but not the Ghosthelm, the entry which presumably confused Bergen). This technically means that either a success or a failure will be re-rolled, so you roll once, pick it up, and roll again. For simplicities sake it is equivalent to just rolling once, but make sure to specify before you actually roll.

[Empirespy]

Thanks, I hadn't looked at the FAQ, but after reading it, the question is really ambiguous, as it doesn't mention the ghost helm, but as it doesn't mention saves, I assume that fortune should work as Nurgling Chieftain said.

[don_mondo]

That's not true.

If a Farseer fails his Ghosthelm but already has Fortune from a previous casting, he can use it to re-roll the invulnerable save

No, he can't. Current Eldar FAQ:

Q: Can the roll to prevent Perils of the Warp be re-rolled
if the Farseer’s unit has Fortune cast upon it? (p28)
A: No.

Given that the only roll Fortune affects would be the armor save.................................

[Chrysis]

No, he can't. Current Eldar FAQ:

Q: Can the roll to prevent Perils of the Warp be re-rolled
if the Farseer’s unit has Fortune cast upon it? (p28)
A: No.

Given that the only roll Fortune affects would be the armor save.................................

The "roll to prevent Perils of the Warp" is the Ghosthelm roll, not his invulnerable. So he can't reroll the Ghosthelm, but could reroll the invulnerable.

[don_mondo]

Right, sure, even tho Fortune has nothing to do with Ghosthelm. Got it, yeah, sure..........................

[Nurgling Chieftain]

That FAQ answer is precisely because Fortune has nothing to do with the Ghosthelm, yes. It does have to do with invulnerable saves, which can negate the result of a Perils.

[TheGreatDalmuti]

The inv save doesn't negate perils. Since you roll the save and reroll if succesfull the perils obviously take effect you didn't ignore it. So the faq is not for inv saves. Which you also don't reroll as per other FAQ.

The only roll you can have to ignore the effect of perils is indeed the ghosthelm "if a farseer suffers a perils ... the ghosthelm will prevent it on a roll..." . The FAQ clarifies that it is not a save that can be rerolled with fortune. Did we know it allready? Sure, but it is not the first FAQ I see and scratch my head saying "who would play it thaty way?"

So new FAQ or no you don't reroll anything if you have fortune.

[don_mondo]

I'll agree to disagree. See ya.

[Empirespy]

The inv save doesn't negate perils. Since you roll the save and reroll if succesfull the perils obviously take effect you didn't ignore it. So the faq is not for inv saves. Which you also don't reroll as per other FAQ.

The only roll you can have to ignore the effect of perils is indeed the ghosthelm "if a farseer suffers a perils ... the ghosthelm will prevent it on a roll..." . The FAQ clarifies that it is not a save that can be rerolled with fortune. Did we know it allready? Sure, but it is not the first FAQ I see and scratch my head saying "who would play it thaty way?"

So new FAQ or no you don't reroll anything if you have fortune.

I'm confused, you seem to justify that you can re-roll your inv with fortune, but then because you can't see why anyone would play a re-roll with a ghosthelm, you can't re-roll your inv save. Is this what you are trying to say, or am I just missing the point of your post?

[Dwane Diblie]

A Ghosthelm dose not save against the wound caused by PotW. It PREVENTS the attack in the first place. This is not a save. It is a mechanic all to its self. Fortune can not and will not help you against this. If you fail the Ghosthelm prevention then you take your invulnerable save against the wound caused by PotW like normal. Fortune will prevent the reroll from occuring, be it pass or fail, due to FAQ on conflicting Re-rolls. THe FAQ quoted above is in relation to PREVENTING PotW, not saving against the wound caused, therefor is inrelation to the Ghosthelm and not rune armour, and fortune.

For even more clarity the following is the order of actions.

Cast power.
Triggered PotW.
Roll to prevent PotW. <---- This is the part in question and what is covered in the FAQ.
If failed PotW wounds psyker.
Roll Inv to save against wound.
if passed reroll unless effected by fortune. <---- Not this part.
.....

[Mr_Rose]

Right, sure, even tho Fortune has nothing to do with Ghosthelm. Got it, yeah, sure..........................

Remembering that there are three kinds of Save (armour, cover, invulnerable) and that the Ghosthelm isn't any of those, regardless of whether people refer to it as one as a shortcut much like they do with Feel No Pain rolls, of course Fortune, which allows Saves to be re-rolled, has no effect on th Ghosthelm roll and of course the Fortune effect continues to apply to the completely separate Invulnerable Save provided by the seer's Rune Armour.

Why is it so hard for you to believe that two different bits of gear that do two different things could be affected differently by an effect which only affects one of those things?

[TheGreatDalmuti]

For the record that is what I was saying.
And anyway, whatever the FAQ says or means, even if it didn't exist, the rules are enough for us to know that you do not reroll anything (ghosthelm or save) while fortuned. The new FAQ also says you do not reroll. So there is no conflict whatever it actually means.

[Dwane Diblie]

Yes, but you have to be fortuned to not reroll your rune armour save.

[TheGreatDalmuti]

Yes, we are talking about fortuned farseers here.

[Egaeus]

First, I could see where the confusion could come from (especially if someone came from an RPG backgound) if one thinks of a "save" as just a roll to prevent something bad from happening...and GW aren't always very explicit with their terminology.

I have probably overlooked something but wouldn't you always have to re-roll your save from Perils? If you make your first roll the Perils rules require you to re-roll. A failed save is allowed to be re-rolled by Fortune (it is actually presented as an imperative...not an option). Now you can't re-roll more than once, but if you failed your first save would't you want a chance to save the model? Or did I just miss a FAQ regarding this?

[Mr_Rose]

It works like this:
When the saves are rolled, you take the successes and separate them from the failures. Then, the Perils rule forces you to re-roll the successes and the Fortune effect allows you to re-roll the failures. Thus, the whole batch gets re-rolled and, since none of them can be re-rolled again, having all been previously re-rolled, the second batch stands.

Since this effectively makes the whole first batch of rolls completely pointless the common convention is that such a combination of matching re-rolls will "cancel out" and you should just roll the dice once and accept the first result since the whole rigmarole of picking them up and rolling again makes no statistical difference whatsoever to fair dice.

Remember though that the "first roll" under that a convention effectively represents the re-rolled batch from the "proper" way and so no other re-rolls ought to be allowed either.

[DoctorTom]

First, I could see where the confusion could come from (especially if someone came from an RPG backgound) if one thinks of a "save" as just a roll to prevent something bad from happening...and GW aren't always very explicit with their terminology.

I have probably overlooked something but wouldn't you always have to re-roll your save from Perils? If you make your first roll the Perils rules require you to re-roll. A failed save is allowed to be re-rolled by Fortune (it is actually presented as an imperative...not an option). Now you can't re-roll more than once, but if you failed your first save would't you want a chance to save the model? Or did I just miss a FAQ regarding this?

If you make your invulnerable save the first time, Perils forces you to reroll. If you fail your invulnerable save the first time, Fortune allows you to reroll. Technically you roll the first time and are forced to reroll no matter what you get, but for simplicity's sake this is usually shortened so that you skip the first die roll and treat your roll as if it is the reroll. The end result is the same.