Where are you with the fluff now?

[Commissar Davis]

Personally I think the background has been a bit hit and miss this edition, with the 'Grimdark' ebbing and waning at different points. Not a fan of the new Slaanesh look, which looks to have gone backward in design. and a few other things seem silly.

BRB : The darkness was definitely there. C:SM : Missing something C:IG : Definitely has it. C:SW : Wolfy Wolf Wulfen spoils it. C: Nids : Has it. C: BA : Something is again not right. C: Crons : Has it. C: GK : Spoils it by being OTT. C: DE has it in good amounts.

Saying that, Black Library is good as ever and Forge World has some good stuff in their campaigns.

Is it just me getting older, or was the older stuff really as gleefully dark as I remember it, and what's your take?

[vladsimpaler]

Is it just me getting older, or was the older stuff really as gleefully dark as I remember it, and what's your take?

You're right. A lot of the new stuff is less "grimdark" and is more "over the top comic book hurrr".
This also stems from the fact that a lot of the old background had a "last stand" or "Pyhrric victory" feel to it. You had the Crimson Fists fighting against the Orks, the Ultramarines fighting hopelessly outnumbered by Tyranids, and a ton of other short stories that had that same vibe. Hell, most of the Marine background in RT revolved around large numbers of them dying, even if they -did- win.

Now you have single dudes taking out Carnifexes and Daemons without even breaking a sweat, it really takes away from the setting and I choose to ignore it. That being said, the Forge World stuff is pretty good and I like it.

[TheDungen]

Yeah they think they sell more minatures by tellign you how great the army is in the codex nowdays thats why imperial codices are less dark.

[Commissar Davis]

Yeah they think they sell more minatures by tellign you how great the army is in the codex nowdays thats why imperial codices are less dark.

Which is really depressing. Reading through the C:BT, they come across as fantastic, but it isn't written OTT, and makes other SM seem 'nice and friendly' by comparison (other than Chaos). Talking to some fans, that codex was really popular at the time (I dropped out for a while).

[Notanoob]

The fluff in every 5th edition codex except for Dark Eldar has disappointed me. First Calgar/Tigurius and the whole Ultramarines BS, then the Blood Angels allying with Necrons and some other smaller things, Space Wolves were just crazy, Tyranids were a lot less scary and WTF is with the Swarmlord and Doom, then GK. Ugh, that was brutal. And personally, I dislike the Necron's new fluff. It doesn't sit right at all, and I'm getting sick of the unneeded changes. So much has been wrong in all of these books. But on the bright side, yeah BL is pumping out amazing fiction (by their own standards, I suppose), and FW is pretty good most of the time.

[DeviantApostle]

If the rumours are true and Tau are the Anti-Chaos race, the universe will have finally jumped the shark.

It's not really surprising, though, the culture that gave rise to 40K's Grimdark has been watered down to nearly nonexistant levels since the 80's. Heavy Metal's a bit less mainstream, only the real nutjobs call gamers the spawn of Satan, comic book heroes were brought out of the dark phase of the early 90's... I miss Judge Dredd and the ABC warriors the most, the only comic I have left is Requiem.

Honestly, I'm not sure you can call 40K Grimdark anymore. The sense of Lovecraftian hopelessness is being supplanted, the threats facing the Empire systematically de-clawed and neutered. Hope just doesn't belong in a Grimdark universe and we're getting an overabundance of it.

[kenotic]

Does the imperium really need "hope"? lmao
Hell it's force just crushing all its enemies EVERY SINGLE TIME.

[Kakapo42]

I personally think Battlefleet Gothic and the Eye of Terror 'era' got the setting right; the Imperium a titanic decaying wreck of an empire that doesn't quite realise it's dead yet and is giving it all it's got, Chaos a horrible threat that's growing in power daily, the Orks rampaging unchecked across the galaxy, the Eldar (both kinds) slipping around in the shadows conducting their own mysterious agenda, the Necrons some terrifying enigma from the dawn of time that's just starting to return, the Tyranids a seemingly unstoppable plague descending upon the universe and the Tau as dynamic new idealistic hopefuls just setting out into a place that's completely gone to hell.

[Latro_]

Pickup any 2ed codex and read it from cover to cover, its a different kinda feel you get. I'd liken it a bit to 40k then was the dark knight film and 40k is more like batman forever/and robin etc.

Kinda like chaos cultists then:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki...osCultists.jpg

Chaos cultists now:
http://images.wikia.com/warhammer40k..._Renegades.jpg

They're both dark and gothic but the older one, for me anyway just has that added darkness and that shined in 2ed. Then again it could all be me being old and rose tinted...

[Lord Damocles]

Chaos cultists now:
http://images.wikia.com/warhammer40k..._Renegades.jpg

If your definition of 'now' is ten years ago, sure...

[Latro_]

omg i am actually that old arn't I. I knew this day would come.

[TheDungen]

Well notice the cultists int eh firs tone are human, they may be dressed as cultists ther ebut on another day they may go back to work and blend in in society that amkes them much much worse. Now days it slike you can always see if someone worships chaos. Cause they're either mad or mutated =(. I'd lvoe some rumors of some of the high lords of terra being servants of chaos or somethign like that.

[baphomael]

That second 'cultist' image... I don't think they're actually chaos cultists. I think they're more just a generic gang of mutant henchmen, a bit like the Scavvies from Necromunda.

Iirc, that image was first published in the Inquisitor rulebook, and I took it as representative of the kind of generic mutant goons you find in pirate ports or underhives the galaxy-over.

That book had various characterful images of the kind of diverse enemies and allies an Inquisitor might encounter, from chaos cultists, corrupted inquisitors, rival warbands, mutant goons, mercenaries and paramilitaries, assassins and criminal gangs.

[Megad00mer]

Black Library is still great. Abnett, ADB, McNeil and others are still telling fantastic, dark gothic stories.

When it comes to the game itself though, the problem is Mat Ward. The man doesn't understand the theme of the universe he's writing in.

The universe itself is still plenty Grimdark. Look at every 5th Edition book not written by Ward. These are still telling some pretty dark stories. The Dark Eldar codex drips with gothic horror. The Space Wolves are still as savage as ever (giant wolves aside). The Imperial Guard are still portrayed as a meat grinder. The Tyranids, though now less "animal" and more "alien" are still a galactic threat on an unimaginable scale.

Now let's look at Ward's books. You don't get that same sense of grim darkness. His books read more like comic books. The Ultramarines are basically Super Heroes with almost no depth. The Necrons are moustache twirling super villains. The Grey Knights are on a whole other level of shark jumping ridiculousness, carving their names into the hearts of Daemon Primarchs and strolling unharmed through the Warp . The Blood Angels are still tragic figures, but Deep Striking Land Raiders, Blood Fists, Blood Lances, Blood Talons, Blood Boil....it's kinda hard to take things like this seriously.

[wyvirn]

The Tyranid book doesn't convey the sense of fear and inevitable doom that the old ones had. Since everything is told from an objective 3rd person perspective and they focused on the hive mind defeats, it gives me the sense that the bugs are more a thorn in the side rather than some sort of C'thulu-like monster. If anything, they seem more human and understandable with the Swarmlord and re-incarnation stuff.

[Bunnahabhain]

I almost entirely agree with the above...

For the last few years, the problem is Space Marines. The non-marine books have more or less kept in theme for their race, and generally developed and maybe expanded their background. The Necrons weren't done brilliantly, but if we compare them to the Marines, they look great.
The Marines are dire. Codex marines and Space Wolves have daft bits, but in the poker hand of the shark jumping game, Blood Angels raised hard, and Grey Knights went all in. I'm just worried about CSM, they're sitting on a heap of background-chips so big, they could blow all the rest away, and I've not heard anything saying that Mr Ward isn't doing them...

[Megad00mer]

The Tyranid book doesn't convey the sense of fear and inevitable doom that the old ones had. Since everything is told from an objective 3rd person perspective and they focused on the hive mind defeats, it gives me the sense that the bugs are more a thorn in the side rather than some sort of C'thulu-like monster. If anything, they seem more human and understandable with the Swarmlord and re-incarnation stuff.

You make a good point. The Tyranid codex isn't nearly as dark and hopeless as the previous editions. I'd still argue that it's a helluva lot closer to the mark in terms of theme than any of Ward's books. If Ward wrote the Tyranid Codex, he'd probably have Hive Tyrants that laugh manically and rub their hands together as they direct the swarms. Marneus Calgar would have single handedly wiped out a Hive Fleet, and Old One eye would be someone's pet.

Ironically we'd probably be a lot more competitive rules wise however.

[ChrisMurray]

I personally really like where the background currently is. You have huge battles, characters that are larger than life and a general attatude that would be considered immoral by todays standards.

I would also point out with the "Matt Ward codex" that it is unlikely that one man is responsable for writing all the rules and all the fluff in a codex without any other help or input. The codexes are a group effort it's just one person gets their name on the cover, it still has to be approved by GW IP department\person who will decide if it's how they want the background to progress.

[Dryaktylus]

Kinda like chaos cultists then:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki...osCultists.jpg

Chaos cultists now:
http://images.wikia.com/warhammer40k..._Renegades.jpg

Funnily they're both from Adrian Smith.

Pickup any 2ed codex and read it from cover to cover, its a different kinda feel you get.

*Picks up the Ork Codex* (...) You're right!

[Orphic]

Unless I'm mistaken the Tyranid codex features an incident where a Phoenix Lord single handedly takes down a Hive Fleet. Shame he wasn't present at Iyanden :P