The problem with the 21st century and this hobby

[Deff Mekz]

WARNING: Wall of Text

Back in 2003 when I got into the hobby at the ground old age of 9 the atmosphere when getting into this hobby was much friendlier and to be honest people cared more about the hobby than actually winning. All anyone cared about was spending time with friends and family of all ages and generally having a good time. The community back then was such more well, community orientated; things were done for the rule of cool, players played to the fluff and did ridiculous things you would never see in an overly competitive environment. (A Space Marine Chaplain charging into an entire mob of Ork boyz after his squad had been killed by shooting for example) The great thing is the dice always seem to reward this "heroic actions, something you'll never experience if you’re hung up a WAAC mindset.

So how does this relate to the topic title? Well, the world of today is so internet based, I'll be the first to admit that most of my generation would properly die without the internet , and as new players come into the hobby they look to the internet, because that's what our society is built around in the world of today. Except they are no longer met by the smiley faces of real people in stores, the friendly care less attitude that came with the hobby back then. Instead, these days they are met with if you do not take this unit you will lose. New players are being brought into a community were winning is everything and the hobby aspect of the hobby is dying. For eg; a noticed a thread in 40k General earlier (actually what made me write this) by DTWATKINS (sorry for naming you mate) about using a Tomb Stalker as a C`tan, now he was afraid that people would complain at him just because the Tomb Stalker was a fair bit larger than a C`tan which is fair enough. Now the posts below got me rather angry to say the least (Disclaimer: Not at the posters themselves just the posts) as they talked about how the tomb stalker would be unsuitable as it wouldn't fit on a 60mm and people would accuse him of modelling for an advantage. Now the latter part is actually what ticked me off the mostly. The fact that our community feels that someone can't use a model they bought with their own hard earned cash just because it might give them a slight advantage in a game. If it bothers you that much why not just put a 60mm in the centre of the base and measure from there, problem solved!

Another thing I've noticed these days of the internet is really cool conversions are frowned apon unless for meant display. I've seen several posters, on various forums, post about how they want to do Conversion X but feel they can't because they're fellow players would rules lawyer them and use that conversion against them to gain an advantage. Now posts like these always leave me utterly incensed, that people feel they have to stifle they're own creativity just to satisfy the over competitive attitude of some in the wargaming community (Note: I have nothing against competitive gamers, see later in post) Back in my day, cool conversions were encouraged and supported by those around me and a never had to worry about Mr Bobby WAAC telling me it was wrong to do such a thing as I'd gain a huge disadvantage in a game.

Over the years I have watched closely as the age of casual gaming has declined into near nothingness. (With much sadness I might add) I believe there are several things to blame for this, some more so than others, but they've all had a substantial effect on the way we game today.

The first, like I stated before, is the internet. In the past 10 years the number of sites focussed on tactics and army lists has reached a staggering level. It's getting to the point where the painting/modelling aspect of the hobby is almost non-existent across the internet. In fact besides the fantastic painting and modelling sub forums on Dakka Dakka, Ammobunker and Warseer (and in some respects CMON) the internet is barren of decent communities for the hobby orientated players. This brings me back to a thread I was reading a while back, which I can't locate for some irritating reason, about which part of the hobby players hated the most. Now no prizes go out to anyone who guesses which part was the most hated. Yep that's right, painting and modelling. Now these stats disgusted me to the core and I'm sorry to say if that's the case you’re in the wrong hobby. A little single minded I know but it's true, the hobby aspect always has been and always be the thing that makes this hobby. If want to push a bunch of gaming pieces around a board which you don't care about, then I suggest playing a game like chess.

The second is, I'm sorry to say, GW itself. (I know surprise surprise, I'm not just hating on them though so read on) The company doesn't make as much of an effort to push forward the P&M aspect of the hobby as it used to. One example of this is WD, the magazine focusses a lot less on the hobby aspect as it used to. The old articles in the magazine really encouraged the fun side of the hobby; "Doc's Conversion Clinic anyone? Fluff in the magazine?" Now admittedly the magazine has improved slightly over the past year with things like fluff starting to be included again, but it seems every time the magazine takes a step forward (Spearhead Expansion for 40k anyone?) the next issue takes another 12 back.

Now if I listed every single point I'd be here all day so I'll just list one more. So on to competitive gaming. Now before you all start I have nothing against competitive gaming and I think there is a place for it but at the expense of the other aspects of the hobby. Now us older players (if you can 17 old ) know there is more to the hobby than winning all the time, the younger players joining our hobby will not know any better. They will be bought into the hobby thinking that the spirit of our hobby, the P&M aspect, is completely irrelevant and care little about it.

If anyone is still with me after that wall of text thankyou for reading, I know at some parts it may seem I’m against competitive gaming but I honestly am not. I completely understand where completive gamers are coming from, and enjoy a challenging game as much as the next war gamer. This post was more about how I feel certain aspects of the hobby, which to be honest make the hobby what it is, are being put to one side at the expense of other, to put it bluntly, completely irrelevant aspects.

Deff

[Mr Ogre]

Community is what you make of it skip.

I nip into GW now and again, mostly for a chinwag with my old manager, often for a pick up game. Now it could be being a former staff member at that store, but I never struggle to get a conversation going, and get my froth on.

Yes, overly competitive people can be horribly overwhelming, to the detriment of my own enjoyment (seriously, nothing worse than someone wanting 'Tournament practice' when I've just wheeled out my usual army, and then criticising me for my choices. Indeed, one of the training points for a Staffer is 'their hobby, not your hobby'. Which kind of makes me a hypocrite I suppose, but it is a fine old line when you're just a gamer.

I find the obsessing over 'optimal builds' and stuff quite depressing, as a fair chunk of my local scene went Tournamental a few years ago, and all their armies looked and played the same (seriously...dull, dull dull). I like variety me!

[shelfunit.]

7th Ed warhammer with the Daemon/VC/DE triumvirate fostered the ultra competative game we see today - you had to bring your best possible build to stand a chance against them - once you had that build it stuck. 8th edition with the "True" line of sight rules is feeding the "modelling for advantage" as anything other than the stock miniature is liable to be seen as gaining some form of advantage. It's a sad roller coaster that won't be solved until a) the models are just visual aids and the LoS rules switch back to an abstract form - that way all forms of conversion and "coolness" on the base can occur freely, and b) the army books are all released at the same time having all been tested and balenced against each other at the same time, similar to the ravening hordes at the begining of 6th ed - which seemed to work pretty well.

[Deff Mekz]

I like variety me!

I completely agree, I can't stand playing the same thing over and over again, or seeing the same models over and over again. (one reason I love seeing inspiring conversions) It must of been hard being a staffer, I know I'd end up steering new players to a more friendly game style and frowning apon overly competitive players. :P

b) the army books are all released at the same time having all been tested and balenced against each other at the same time, similar to the ravening hordes at the begining of 6th ed - which seemed to work pretty well.

I didn't play Fantasy back in 6th so I can't comment on that, but I agree with you on the Fantasy books fostering a good part of the WAAC community. I despised Fantasy at the end of 7th personally believe 6th ed 40k goes the same way as 8th ed WFB. 8th killed off a large part of WAAC for Fantasy from what I've seen due to the rules been more fun and random. I've got my fingers crossed that 6th ed will go a similar way and hopefully kill off a large part of the 40k WAAC players.

Thankyou both for your replies.

[Scaryscarymushroom]

Over the years I have watched closely as the age of casual gaming has declined into near nothingness. (With much sadness I might add) I believe there are several things to blame for this, some more so than others, but they've all had a substantial effect on the way we game today.

I totally agree that gaming isn't what it used to be. But Games Workshop's attitude has definitely had a lot to do with this. IMO, More than the 'blessing in disguise' that is the internet or any other product of the 21st century.

The rules for earlier editions of 40k, for example, more readily encouraged cool conversions and epic scenarios. The rules for 2nd edition could care less about balance because they were ALL about telling an epic tale of how a single assasin killed everything in one turn or how a lascannon ripped the leg off of a dreadnought. The rules for 3rd edition, while much simpler, had the goal of providing an easy-to-understand backdrop to encourage players to narrate their games. The rules for 4th elaborated on the simplistic nature of 3rd and fixed some gameplay problems, making the game mechanics more compelling at a cost of making the game about gameplay rather than fluff. 5th edition elaborated on the 'simplistic' nature of 4th and fixed even more gameplay problems, essentially robbing the game of even more spirit for the sake of making dice-rolling more technical and less imaginative.

Now, I'm not saying that 40k is made for WAAC players, but 5th edition is definitely made for gamers. Painters, collectors, and story-tellers can stick to models, paints, and black library books it seems.

Painters and Modellers probably also don't come out to clubs much anymore. For me, painting is easier when I'm at my own familiar desk. So I sit at home alone.

I think that the people who enjoy painting and modelling (such as myself) don't usually talk about it on the internet much because they're busier doing what they actually enjoy. The internet caters more readily to tactics pages than it does to plogs. It's easy to talk about tactics. You just need to read the rules (or in some cases, have someone else read the rules for you.) Talking about your own projects requires more work to be done offline, and there's only so much to say about other people's projects.

[adamwelton]

Now, I'm not saying that 40k is made for WAAC players, but 5th edition is definitely made for gamers. Painters, collectors, and story-tellers can stick to models, paints, and black library books it seems.

That is very interesting. It also explains a great deal. Nice one.

[Deff Mekz]

I totally agree that gaming isn't what it used to be. But Games Workshop's attitude has definitely had a lot to do with this. IMO, More than the 'blessing in disguise' that is the internet or any other product of the 21st century.

I'm glad agrees with me on that point, like I said in my post above, I see 8th as a step in the right direction and it went a long way to making the gaming side of the hobby bundles of fun for me again.

You have a intresting point about painting being harder to talk about, I'll be the first to admit I'm utterly useless at taking pictures mainly because I have nought the time nor the patience to do it properly. If I did I would try and do a P&M blog properly. One thing I`am a fan of however is things like the Group Project Logs on Warseer, if I had the time I would post and show my support to the fella's/gals taking part in those.

[Scaryscarymushroom]

One more thing to add:

It seems that the web content on GW's daily blog has come to echo more closely the content in White Dwarf magazine. Other game companies run blogs that are updated less frequently, but with simple tutorials on how to paint eyes, how to paint source lighting, or how to use common materials (like foam) to create cool, themed terrain for your games.

It's just one more thing that seems to have changed about GW's habits in recent years.

[Deff Mekz]

I'm not a fan of the new GW blog either, the old one was superior in every single way if I`m being perfectly honest. The new one is more focussed on selling new products than actually being a hobby blog in it self. The old GW blog actually had the occasional tutorial on as well, I remember their being a step by step tutorial on how some one had painted a red-scorp land raider. Not to mention the actual "content" has decreased to less than a third of what it once was.

[sigur]

Back in 2003 when I got into the hobby at the ground old age of 9 the atmosphere when getting into this hobby was much friendlier and to be honest people cared more about the hobby than actually winning. All anyone cared about was spending time with friends and family of all ages and generally having a good time. The community back then was such more well, community orientated; things were done for the rule of cool, players played to the fluff and did ridiculous things you would never see in an overly competitive environment. (A Space Marine Chaplain charging into an entire mob of Ork boyz after his squad had been killed by shooting for example) The great thing is the dice always seem to reward this "heroic actions, something you'll never experience if you’re hung up a WAAC mindset....

Well, what do you say, it was exactly the same when I got into wargaming around 1995 and everything went bad around 2000! All of a sudden everybody was all competitive and didn't paint or model anything any more. Everybody was rules-lawyering and didn't appreciate the background any more.

I think what you're listing is the online communities stuff and doesn't have anything to do with wargaming. The thing though is twofold: First, wargaming happens offline (thank god for that) and between two or slightly more people. What is discussed online is most of the time a very vocal minority of people who just enjoy talking about list-building, optimization of lists and whatnot. And despite this may look really grand and like the choir of the masses, it really just is a very small minority of people compared to the rest of wargamers.

Essentially, wargaming is what you make out of it. You can't change the world of wargaming just like you can't change the whole rest of the world either. What you can do is transform it around you so you find it more enjoyable. Try to get to play with people who share your ideas on what wargaming should be, paint, model, all you like (by the way I've been around on wargaming forums' painting sections for quite a while and hardly ever saw anybody talk negatively or insultingly about anything someone modelled or painted. There is a certain initial hurdle to overcome to post pictures of one's stuff but 99% of replies in painting forums are encouraging and positive even if the presented piece is somewhat badly executed.). Just don't get bogged down by what may seem to you to be the whole world of wargaming.

I probably should be more present outside the painting sections of forums but there are just some places on Warseer I better avoid so my mood doesn't suffer too badly. If you get frustrated with GW games look around for other systems. Nowadays there are so incredibly many systems that are all so rewarding to play.

So all in all: Wargaming happens offline and it's your hobby and that of the people you play with so letting strangers from across the globe make it miserable to you isn't worth it.


Oh, and just because I just read about it: Yes, it's sad that WD is a sales vehicle and there is hardly any substance to GW's website any more but we have to view this realistically. We don't HAVE to consume these media and it's not like there was too little actual content about wargaming freely available online, right?

[Deff Mekz]

Well, what do you say, it was exactly the same when I got into wargaming around 1995 and everything went bad around 2000!

Ok, that made me laugh.

I think what you're listing is the online communities stuff and doesn't have anything to do with wargaming.

You are right in some respects as I think I spend to much time on forums when I'm free, but part of it comes from the fact I feel I can't go and join up with new clubs and meet new people like I used to. Mainly because everytime I do they end up being players of the uber-competitve variety. I do have a small circle of friends I love playing with, but there are only four of us and it kind of makes it hard to do certain things. (apocalypse for eg) I think the main reason for me feeling like this is the gaming group I had when used to live near The Lake District, (North West England) where I saw my gaming group then change from a more friendly group, to one that became so centered on winning all the the time I just stopped going.

So all in all: Wargaming happens offline.

Thank goodness for that.

[sigur]

I see. Yeah, that's annoying. But I'm sure you'll be able to find people who are more on your level of things. But I know what it's like - you can't find anything you enjoy playing with, then you go online but the forums seem to be full of people who exactly are the kind you don't want to play with. Can get frustrating I suppose. Maybe that is the whole wrong idea altogether but maybe you can get people into playing a system that's less subject to "internet hype" like any of the Specialist Games or something like that? Or, if you have good connections amongst the local gaming club, maybe you can try running a campaign or something like that. Trying something new usually shakes up things enough to make them interesting again.

Oh, and thank the gods each and every day for your small group of gaming buddies! You'll miss them when they're gone

[Deff Mekz]

I'm sure I will, it's refreshing to know a small group of people that actually enjoy the background and P&M aspect of the hobby as much as me. I suppose I could always clone them.

And as for Specialist Games, we were actually thinking of getting into a Inq 28 type campaign in the future. We've all been quite inspired to say the least by Migsula's =I= Munda stuff.

[Deadnight]

WARNING: Wall of Text

Back in 2003 when I got into the hobby at the ground old age of 9 the atmosphere when getting into this hobby was much friendlier and to be honest people cared more about the hobby than actually winning. All anyone cared about was spending time with friends and family of all ages and generally having a good time. The community back then was such more well, community orientated; things were done for the rule of cool, players played to the fluff and did ridiculous things you would never see in an overly competitive environment. (A Space Marine Chaplain charging into an entire mob of Ork boyz after his squad had been killed by shooting for example) The great thing is the dice always seem to reward this "heroic actions, something you'll never experience if you’re hung up a WAAC mindset.

i started in 2003 as well when i was 18. and i never saw any of that. i saw tournaments and 3rd ed and 4th ed powerbuilds. people back then moaned about how "back in the day" people cared more about the hobby than atually winning, and how All anyone cared about was spending time with friends and family of all ages and generally having a good time. The community back then was such more well, community orientated; things were done for the rule of cool, players played to the fluff and did ridiculous things you would never see in an overly competitive environment.

heres the thing. you were 9. you were a kid. things look different to kids. we all remember that somehow as a golden age. trust me. its not. you are extremely guilty of the "rose tinted glasses" syndrome.

o how does this relate to the topic title? Well, the world of today is so internet based, I'll be the first to admit that most of my generation would properly die without the internet , and as new players come into the hobby they look to the internet, because that's what our society is built around in the world of today. Except they are no longer met by the smiley faces of real people in stores, the friendly care less attitude that came with the hobby back then. Instead, these days they are met with if you do not take this unit you will lose. New players are being brought into a community were winning is everything and the hobby aspect of the hobby is dying. For eg; a noticed a thread in 40k General earlier (actually what made me write this) by DTWATKINS (sorry for naming you mate) about using a Tomb Stalker as a C`tan, now he was afraid that people would complain at him just because the Tomb Stalker was a fair bit larger than a C`tan which is fair enough. Now the posts below got me rather angry to say the least (Disclaimer: Not at the posters themselves just the posts) as they talked about how the tomb stalker would be unsuitable as it wouldn't fit on a 60mm and people would accuse him of modelling for an advantage. Now the latter part is actually what ticked me off the mostly. The fact that our community feels that someone can't use a model they bought with their own hard earned cash just because it might give them a slight advantage in a game. If it bothers you that much why not just put a 60mm in the centre of the base and measure from there, problem solved!

and as cool as conversions are some things simply will not stand in for other things, regardless how how many monies you threw into it.

Another thing I've noticed these days of the internet is really cool conversions are frowned apon unless for meant display. I've seen several posters, on various forums, post about how they want to do Conversion X but feel they can't because they're fellow players would rules lawyer them and use that conversion against them to gain an advantage. Now posts like these always leave me utterly incensed, that people feel they have to stifle they're own creativity just to satisfy the over competitive attitude of some in the wargaming community (Note: I have nothing against competitive gamers, see later in post) Back in my day, cool conversions were encouraged and supported by those around me and a never had to worry about Mr Bobby WAAC telling me it was wrong to do such a thing as I'd gain a huge disadvantage in a game.

remembers exactly the same debate about customised "oversized" things screening other things in third ed, and therefore blocking LOS... oh the irony. this isnt new. and anyway, its the internet. its not real life. talk to people face to face. most people are cool with conversions.

So on to competitive gaming. Now before you all start I have nothing against competitive gaming and I think there is a place for it but at the expense of the other aspects of the hobby. Now us older players (if you can 17 old ) know there is more to the hobby than winning all the time, the younger players joining our hobby will not know any better. They will be bought into the hobby thinking that the spirit of our hobby, the P&M aspect, is completely irrelevant and care little about it.

considering the amount of highly competetive players that i know who field multiple armies, have staggeringly beautiful paint schemes and conversion jobs with that, who also make all their own terrain, and are fantastic drinking buddies to boot, versus plenty casual folks who couldnt even be bothered to basecoat their army, i completely and utterly disagree with you. being a competitive player is not "doing it wrong". being a competitive player doesnt somehow mean that they lothe/cant/wont bother painting. and i consider the implied linkage to be extremely insulting.

[Mr Ogre]

Also, let's not forget, we are the community. Majority of the blame falls on our shoulders.

Me, I think we could stand for far more friendly painting challenges. Take my Necrons. As a lazy painter, I really need to be motivated to break out the brushes. But, having signed up for an inter-store tournament, and not wanting to let my side down by being a Tinboy* I managed to paint 1,500 points in just 6 days. Force has now been expanded, and it's time to make get the rest up to muster. I'm just about motivated to belt through a couple of units tonight and tomorrow. But...the rest of my armies? Well.....Undead are mostly still on sprue, Ogres really need doing, WotR Dwarfs...I've done some, Angmar aren't so much as aware of paint as a concept.

So where is the community challenge? Why haven't I pulled my finger out and laid one down? Why not have an ongoing, drop in, drop out tale of a great many gamers, where records are kept, and honours bestowed?

Imagine holding our very own Tale of several dozen gamers, where the participants all attend a chosen tournament as the deadline. THAT is what I call community! Beers will be drunk! Failures will be taunted, and victories of all kind will be lauded and acknowledged! Warhammer world is an awesome venue for this, and the serious drinking can be done in Nottingham itself (Pit and Pendulum comes highly and personally recommended!). Concept of a drinking game forms in my mind, where the list of milestones are read out, with those who missed said milestone take a drink.

*Tinboy is an archaic nickname for those who haven't painted their army

[Deff Mekz]

@ Deadnight

I can see where your coming from on the whole "kid" thing, but the group I had was brilliant when I first started going. As you say though, it could of just been that through a child eyes I never noticed these things until I started to grow up and view the world differently.

You are right in some respects about the counts as thing, some things are absolutley inapporitate for such a purpose, but in this case I felt the model in question would be perfectly fine (a MC being even bigger is more of disadvantage if anything) for what the guy wanted to use it for.

As for the last bit of your post, I do not think being a competitve player is "doing it wrong". What I was trying to say in my post is that alot of players are leaving the P&M aspect of the hobby to rot, which is a shame as IMO the hobby wouldn't be the same without. I personally believe that we should try to find a fine balance between the two.

[Deadnight]

As for the last bit of your post, I do not think being a competitve player is "doing it wrong". What I was trying to say in my post is that alot of players are leaving the P&M aspect of the hobby to rot, which is a shame as IMO the hobby wouldn't be the same without. I personally believe that we should try to find a fine balance between the two.

with all due respect, you said how being competitive comes at the expense of the rest of the hobby, and i flatly refute that.

painting and modelling is a pain in the ass. as opposed to actual gaming? hell yeah, its rewarding, but its also a much bigger slog, and more time consuming. so of course it will be the least liked. Its like running or boxing or any sport you care to name. there are vital, yet extremely painful parts that people have to go through (willingly even) to get the most out of the hobby. try doing 2 hours of weights, or needing 10mile runs 3 times a week just to stay at the same level of fitness! i dont like doing either, but i work my way through them

[Deff Mekz]

Ah yes so I did, sorry about that, I didn't mean it to come across in that way. I must of got abit carried away. I never understood why people find painting/modelling frustrating, I've always found it quite relaxing, but then again I try not to take the hobby to seriously. (Although I do have my moments, take this thread for example )

[Jericho]

It's already been said, but I have to agree that the "real life" gaming community will never really match the online community. It's easy to throw around advice in the form of extreme statements, but not everybody plays that way. I've seen with my own two eyes some GK players, for example, who have managed to resist temptation and field fewer than three Riflemen w/ psybolts in competitive play. I know, it's heresy. I'm guilty of it at times in tactics discussions, giving generic advice at the expense of doing something unique/interesting, but mercifully not everyone takes that advice seriously and some crazy folks don't even go on the forums in the first place, so Emprah only knows that the hell crazy crap they will be putting on the table next.

As for the painting/modelling side of the hobby, I can understand how it's not everybody's cup of tea, but rewarding people who put in the effort is hugely important and I'm very glad that my local tournaments strongly reinforce it with soft scores and prize support. Being the Best General is still important to many folks, which is fine, so long as it doesn't mean they are saying "Screw it!" to painting and sportsmanship along the way... that just makes things miserable for everyone.

As for myself, I never finish painting anything and I rarely throw dice in anger anymore, but it's all fun and games when I do. I can't be bothered to paint things I won't enjoy using just because it will enhance my win/loss ratio. I'd rather spend my time painting squad markings on pre-heresy models and fussing with Custodian conversions that I will actively try to get killed in every game I play with them. Oh the joys of a pre-heresy WB army

[Deff Mekz]

I know what you mean about tactica discussion Jericho, I started posting in them last year when Tomb Kings came out but started to get frustrated fairly quickly. That was mainly due to the TK doom and gloom. which when you were trying to get geared up to paint a pile of bones, isn't exactly the biggest motivator. I eventually stopped posting as things came to narrow minded for my liking. Take Ushabti for example, no one will hear a good word said about them. I personally loved my TK (I hate moving and having to sell off your stuff) and really want to pick them up again at some point in the future. Ok I may of gone slighty off topic there.

I just like to thank everyone who's posted in this thread by the way, I've seen some of the best, and mature, discussion I've ever seen on Warseer in this thread.