The problem with the 21st century and this hobby

[SilentCivilian]

I can fully appreciate where you are coming from Deff Mekz. I started this hobby back in the late 80`s myself and have watched it grow into the world wide beast it is today. Myself and my friends refuse to use unpainted models in our home games mainly as when we started playing it was a plainly stated in the rules books you should have painted armies. I think its fair to say that you hear more from people who play in the tourny scene here as they use forums such as this to discuss builds and things. Many people complain they must have fully painted armies for this but i see PP have started to slip this into their rules sets too for events. This is not a bad thing as i ask honestly, which looks better 2 armies of mostly grey plastic and metal fighting it out or 2 fully painted armies with even the most basic of paint jobs on them?

painting and modeling does not have to be a chore and there will always be those who do not wish to do it, fair play to them its not for everyone. It has always been part of the hobby i found the hardest and i can find it hard to motivate myself at times but half an hour in the morning before work and half an hour in the evening and soon i am churning through podcats and painting my figs all at the same time. I gives me a little me time in this crazy rat race we call life.

[Deff Mekz]

Thanks for the reply mate, I personally have never really suffered from motivation issues in painting although I can see why people do. I think some times you just have to sit down and get painting.

[azhagmorglum]

Not much to say here, apart that I feel like indeed the game/hobby seems to have become more competition oriented. As someone lese said, it may be an internet community problem which represents a small part of the overall hobby community. The thing is, concerning GW at least, tactics/rules discussion articles can be found only on the internet and forums like warseer. GW is hardly promoting fun gaming, and internet is all about competitiveness (or so it seems).

I don't play the game at the moment, the last one was several years ago, I mainly focus on the modelling and painting side of the hobby (I started 15-16 years ago for the records). I remember and still own some WD from back when I started and they were full of tactics/modelling/painting/fluff articles. They were not the big advrstisement they are today, and they well supported all the aspects of the hobby.

Anyway, I'm thankful that forums like this one and others (da-warpath, the chaos dwarfs forums, and certainly others) provide a modelling and painting sub-forum, which are quite lively and give good reads and nice conversions and painting. But even in those sub-forum you have people asking for the most competitive build for their army and which unit they should include or not based on in-game strenght.
Add this to the rules and tactics and general discussion sub-forums, and you can see that competitiveness is everywhere. What the hell, even the news and rumours subforums are filled with rules and tactics discussions based on metagame, whereas the models/armybooks are not even released and the definitive rules are not even printed or known for sure !!

One thing I don't like is threads with titles like "which army to choose to win..." where people ask for low count models armies with the most efficient rules. No matter the models themselves, no matter the fluff, no matter if the op likes the models or not etc...it's really depressing.

I myself don't play in tournaments, and back then when I used to game, my only concerns to include a model in my list was if I liked it or not. A model rules could be utterly useless, I would use it nonetheless if the model was excellent (in my opinion). I'm not against competition, I think it's good to have tournaments since it encourages some people in the hobby, but I don't like the fact that it's easier to find people talking about competitiveness than fun nowadays. But then I guess to each his own, so take my rant with some salt and feel free to ignore it, but I felt like saying what I wanted to say.

[Der_Benson]

Back when I started (aroung 97' -ish... I think) the term "metagame" didn't exist... and "competative gaming" was called "powergaming" and generally considered to be a bad thing ... just a thought that crossed my mind right now

Edit: my spelling really su*ks...

[Trasvi]

I think a large portion of this is age and experience, rather than any specific change on GW's part. I've experienced this with other games (World of Warcraft). When I started playing at 15, I was super into the quests. I'd read all the quest text, and really think that I was an paladin clad in armour of the Light, an adventurer in the darkest depths of a werewolf infested forest, or venturing into a dungeon controlled by the evil Dark Iron Dwarves on a near-impossible quest to rescue the princess and slay their King. I found a 'Silver Ring of the Monkey' and thought it was an amazingly rare magical artefact. Stromgarde keep was filled with Ogres, a dangerous place for a lone dwarf but filled with treasures...
7 Years later, I see the game as a bunch of stats. I'm a paladin tank because my guild needs a tank for XX boss fight in the latest raid, which is just a new place for me to get loot, because I need to get to 74.6% avoidance... I 'grind rep' with factions rather than 'earn reputation'. I get angry at noobs who spec wrong or gear for agility rather than for strength, and ragequit when people die taking out the King of the Dwarves because 'its just a simple non-heroic dungeon'.

^^ Thats all based on WoW, but I think it is applicable to GW games as well. You start off at age 9 and think chainswords are cool and you want to equip all of your fearless crusading Black Templars with them. Then after a while, through either age or experience or something else, your Templars are no longer purging the witch, xenos and heretic from the galaxy but are instead a bunch of MEQs with only 12" S4 AP5 guns, when you could get something else for the same points...


GW might deserve some blame. The WD has very few conversions, stories or otherwise narrative elements anymore. But talk to any 9-year-old player and I bet they're still in love with the idea of Space Werewolfs with Chainswords...

[shelfunit.]

I think a large portion of this is age and experience, rather than any specific change on GW's part. I've experienced this with other games (World of Warcraft). When I started playing at 15, I was super into the quests. I'd read all the quest text, and really think that I was an paladin clad in armour of the Light, an adventurer in the darkest depths of a werewolf infested forest, or venturing into a dungeon controlled by the evil Dark Iron Dwarves on a near-impossible quest to rescue the princess and slay their King. I found a 'Silver Ring of the Monkey' and thought it was an amazingly rare magical artefact. Stromgarde keep was filled with Ogres, a dangerous place for a lone dwarf but filled with treasures...
7 Years later, I see the game as a bunch of stats. I'm a paladin tank because my guild needs a tank for XX boss fight in the latest raid, which is just a new place for me to get loot, because I need to get to 74.6% avoidance... I 'grind rep' with factions rather than 'earn reputation'. I get angry at noobs who spec wrong or gear for agility rather than for strength, and ragequit when people die taking out the King of the Dwarves because 'its just a simple non-heroic dungeon'.

^^ Thats all based on WoW, but I think it is applicable to GW games as well. You start off at age 9 and think chainswords are cool and you want to equip all of your fearless crusading Black Templars with them. Then after a while, through either age or experience or something else, your Templars are no longer purging the witch, xenos and heretic from the galaxy but are instead a bunch of MEQs with only 12" S4 AP5 guns, when you could get something else for the same points...


GW might deserve some blame. The WD has very few conversions, stories or otherwise narrative elements anymore. But talk to any 9-year-old player and I bet they're still in love with the idea of Space Werewolfs with Chainswords...

That's a brilliant post Trasvi - I know (with different examples) it captures exactly how I have felt across a number of games over the years. I think the important question though is why does one start feeling this way? Is it just "growing up"? or is because the general mentality of "second place = first loser" is now more common? Now for the "growing up" argument - I still feel the excitement of "becoming" the character in RPGs - for me Baldur's Gate was the game of choice there - and being the general of a vast army is also pretty absorbing, so I am veering away from the "growing up" premise. With the second concept, I often feel now (even when playing against close friends) that I "have" to win, where as before the days of the internet the game itself was the main reason to play. I know my opp will bring a tough list, so I must bring an equally tough, or tougher one. It often saps the fun out of the games even as early on as the set up, where a misplaced unit can effectively cost you the game. I almost wish for the days where a GM was a heavily suggested addition to help keep things more balenced and story-like.

[azhagmorglum]

painting and modeling does not have to be a chore and there will always be those who do not wish to do it, fair play to them its not for everyone. It has always been part of the hobby i found the hardest and i can find it hard to motivate myself at times but half an hour in the morning before work and half an hour in the evening and soon i am churning through podcats and painting my figs all at the same time. I gives me a little me time in this crazy rat race we call life.

Well it certainly is a chore when you have to build 3000+ pts armies to get a good game according to the (new) rules...GW's fault? And I guess it's even more daunting and disheartening in a world where everything has to be quick and instant and you are not used to wait, and where everything mostly encourages lazyness (roughly speaking)

[Carlosophy]

The problem with the hobby is GW's refusal to actually acknowledge the 21st century even exists. They seem content to continue with paper and pens in a world of smartphones and tablets. I'm not saying that paper-based rulebooks should disappear from shop shelves but it seems ridiculous to me that GW don't sell DRM'd digital copies of all its media at a reduced price. How much more convenient for us all would it be if you could carry around every codex and rulebook on your phone?

First thing I would do is scrap White Dwarf and move all the modelling, hobby and battle report stuff to the website for the whole community to read and download for free. This keeps people coming back to the website and more likely to click on a mail order special offer advert and impulse buy something than jump on the bus and pop to their nearest store. I would also make the army list section of every army book/codex available for free so customers can work out what points costs things are before purchasing. I believe an improved level of trust like this from GW would increase sales, as you would still need the rules/fluff sections to actually play an army; it just makes planning easier and would lead to more model sales.

Secondly I'd set up a software development studio that created interactive electronic army book apps for mobile devices. GW could then push errata and FAQ info directly to customers on a weekly basis but also offer interactive content within the pages, such as 3D model viewpoints and animated map graphics. There would also be an army calculator built in. All would be sold via the App Store/Google Play/Kindle Store. Special edition paper codices would include a free download code for the e-format. Nobody seriously likes hauling hardback books around, regardless of their quality. This could then be coupled with groundbreaking use of NFC-tech chips buried within your units in a similar vein to Skylanders: You customise each unit's chip (contained within its sarge/champion figure) with its modeled weapon options and then to add up your army you just lay out your squads on the table and scan your phone over each unit and character in turn! I reckon some people would pay a premium for this sort of technology.

Lastly I'd encourage the community to send in its own hobby material, be it scenarios, articles or modelling advice for moderation and publication on the GW website in the vein of the Citadel Journal. This one act alone would help kindle the creativity of the community and get people to try out their own things in game. Likewise the design studio JUST LIKE FORGEWORLD DO NOW would offer Beta rules for upcoming changes and characters for the community to playtest and then offer feedback on.

[Brushmonkey]

i started in 2003 as well when i was 18. and i never saw any of that. i saw tournaments and 3rd ed and 4th ed powerbuilds. people back then moaned about how "back in the day" people cared more about the hobby than atually winning, and how All anyone cared about was spending time with friends and family of all ages and generally having a good time. The community back then was such more well, community orientated; things were done for the rule of cool, players played to the fluff and did ridiculous things you would never see in an overly competitive environment.

heres the thing. you were 9. you were a kid. things look different to kids. we all remember that somehow as a golden age. trust me. its not. you are extremely guilty of the "rose tinted glasses" syndrome.



and as cool as conversions are some things simply will not stand in for other things, regardless how how many monies you threw into it.





remembers exactly the same debate about customised "oversized" things screening other things in third ed, and therefore blocking LOS... oh the irony. this isnt new. and anyway, its the internet. its not real life. talk to people face to face. most people are cool with conversions.



considering the amount of highly competetive players that i know who field multiple armies, have staggeringly beautiful paint schemes and conversion jobs with that, who also make all their own terrain, and are fantastic drinking buddies to boot, versus plenty casual folks who couldnt even be bothered to basecoat their army, i completely and utterly disagree with you. being a competitive player is not "doing it wrong". being a competitive player doesnt somehow mean that they lothe/cant/wont bother painting. and i consider the implied linkage to be extremely insulting.

I couldn't agree more.

[Hendarion]

Well, Deff might suffer from the "rose tinted glass syndrom", we all kinda do. But he has one point you can't deny. And that is that painting and modelling had been voted as the most annoying part of the hobby kinda recently on warseer. And yes, it made me go "WHAT THE HELL" too, because to me this is such a big part of the hobby - the fantastic miniatures you can build and paint the way you want them to be. If I wanted pre-painted, pre-assembled miniatures, I could go and buy Lego or Star Wars models and use these to play the very same game. Rules are just rules, they don't tell you or your friends that you can't use other models to play with them, except if you're on a tournament or in a GW shop, but if you wanna play a chess-tournament, you shouldn't show up with Lego either. But to return to the point: If I wouldn't like to model and paint, I wouldn't need to. But I want to. So why do others vote that to be the most annoying part of the hobby if nobody forces them to just skip it?

[Deff Mekz]

Well, Deff might suffer from the "rose tinted glass syndrom"

Guilty as charged.

Edit: I'm abit busy wth upcoming exams atm fella's, but I'll make sure to go through this thread again and comment on everyone's replies at the weekend.

[Deadnight]

Well, Deff might suffer from the "rose tinted glass syndrom", we all kinda do. But he has one point you can't deny. And that is that painting and modelling had been voted as the most annoying part of the hobby kinda recently on warseer. And yes, it made me go "WHAT THE HELL" too, because to me this is such a big part of the hobby - the fantastic miniatures you can build and paint the way you want them to be. If I wanted pre-painted, pre-assembled miniatures, I could go and buy Lego or Star Wars models and use these to play the very same game. Rules are just rules, they don't tell you or your friends that you can't use other models to play with them, except if you're on a tournament or in a GW shop, but if you wanna play a chess-tournament, you shouldn't show up with Lego either. But to return to the point: If I wouldn't like to model and paint, I wouldn't need to. But I want to. So why do others vote that to be the most annoying part of the hobby if nobody forces them to just skip it?

all the 10mile runs i do, and all the hours i clock up on the road, or running cross country. all the injuries ive picked up to my knees and ankles. the fact that im at the stage when 10miles merely clears my head, and doesnt give me "the burn" anymore unless i throw in quarter mile sprint sections. And i need to do that to maintain my level of fitness. yup, training ia the most annoying part of the hobby of "running". it takes up so much time and energy when i could be doing other things.

and yet for all that, doing well at a race (or surviving the kind of events i like to do - the tough mudder, spartan race, deerstalker) is a fantastic feel good feeling at the end of the day. by far, the best part of the hobby. doesnt change the fact that the annoying part comes with the best part, and must be slogged through and dealt with.

painting or gaming? gaming is the fun, active side of the hobby. painting is the slog to get there. you might love it to pieces, but at the end of the day, gaming is more fun and more sociable, so painting will come in second. and thats not a slight on it.

[Hendarion]

Dunno, I don't run, because I hate training.

But like I said, you can play 40k without buying, assembling or painting Games-Workshop miniatures If it is the game you like, you can proxy everything. Other with running. Without training, you can't compete.

[Agrimax]

I started in the late 80's when I was a kid, and remember a (probably) 2nd edn 40k game in particular at a local indie shop where someone set up about one squad of marines at the start of the game, then on about turn 3 suddenly teleported in about 20+ terminators. Technically legal army at the time I think, but no fun whatsoever to play against. I walked out the shop and got called a "bad sport" by the proprietor.
Ironically of course, all it did is lose the shop custom; I went out and found another gaming group with a far better outlook and bought my models at the other shop in town. Possible others had a similar feeling about the place because it went bust a couple of years later.

Some people have and always will be all about the winning, some people want to just have fun. And some people are just <bleep>s and best avoided anyway. The trick is to find a group of players that suit your own preference, they have always been out there too, and I can't say they seem any less numerous than three decades ago to me, internet or no.

[Torga_DW]

insightful post

I had similar experiences. With me, the turning point in world of warcraft was quite noticable. I started getting close to 60 (pre any expansions), and the first thing people would ask when considering me for a group was: what are your stats? link us your gear! Several years later playing eq2, i simply couldn't get groups for certain characters. Because the standard equipment for group instances was raid gear (i couldn't be bothered with the time commitment needed for raiding), and the 'correct' way to do a single-group instance was to run around collecting as many enemies together at the same time, and just grind them down with brute force and area of effects. No skill, no tactics, just relying on gear designed for something harder.

So i think its not completely an individual issue, but a collective one. You will probably be influenced by the people you associate with.

[Deadnight]

Dunno, I don't run, because I hate training.

But like I said, you can play 40k without buying, assembling or painting Games-Workshop miniatures If it is the game you like, you can proxy everything. Other with running. Without training, you can't compete.

you can run races without training too. except you'll be walking, and you'll be last! you're missing out on the hobby. doesnt change the fact that to get the most out of a hobby, you have to put a lot in. and the painting side is a lot less exciting than the gaming side! same with my training. it can be a mind numbing, boring and frequently painful, as well as mentally exhausting and challenging discipline to get through. same as painting.

[Kaptajn_Congoboy]

I think the growing model count might have something to do with people thinking painting is a chore. This was why, when I was a kid, we played more Epic than 40k and more 40k than WHFB; in those early days, you could get by with 20 to 40 - model 40k armies.

Dunno, I don't run, because I hate training.

Me too. Useless waste of my valuable free time. So I bike to work, 22 kilometers back and forth from where I live. Useful activity that saves you money for gas or the bus and keeps you in shape. And I do exercises to keep my lower back stable. Useless activity, but it will pay off in the long run.

[Bassik]

Our gaming club has always been a friendly, casual club. We are very aware that Games Workshop games make for lousy tournament and competetive games; it's obviously a beer-and-pretzels game, and that's how we play it.
Just two grown men, beer, pretzels, and a army of plastic men. That's what this is all about.

[AndrewGPaul]

the painting side is a lot less exciting than the gaming side!

For you, apparently. It's not a universal truth. I suspect plenty of people who post on CMoN or enter Golden Demon and the like would disagree.

I'm not entirely sure I agree; you get from painting what you put in, whereas with gaming, you're also relying on your opponent holding up their part of the process. I don't play against strangers, so I don't have to take part in that particular lottery, but even against friends, they can have bad days, and just not be in the right mood. When that happens, that's three or four hours of my valuable leisure time wasted.

[EldarWonderland]

I play Tomb Kings although I have other armies as well (BM,DE,HE).
I play nearly every week, change the composition of the army every time unless I am so slack I havent done a new list, use models I haven't used for a while, having the next "this plan can't possibly fail" and I win maybe 4 or 5 times a year if I am favoured by the gods.

I love it. I try to give my opponents something different from last time we played and as long as it's been a good game, hopefully with an outrageous or bizarre incident during the game, I go home content.

Yes, more wins would be good but I have no intention of trying to construct "THE" list that sweeps all before it. That would be SO boring.

Went to a competition in the North East once, He went first, turn 1, his doom diver aims at my catapult, overshoots but adjusts himself and flies back, right onto the head of my high priest hiding behind the catapult hill. Dead Hierophant. Effectively game over, but still highly amusing even at the time.