Starting Grey knights

[Mschaff]

hi everyone!
Im starting grey knights as my first 40k Army I have played Fantasy but never 40k. All i have bought is the book, 5 terminators and a dreadknight. I just wanted to see if someone could give me a quick rundown of the units and tell me what units are good and what i should stay away from, from a competitive stand point. Also what should i build the terminators and the terminators as?


I have one other question. in fantasy Special characters are typically not allowed in tournaments. In 40k tournaments are they allowed?

[Bassik]

Hello Mschaff!

Good for you, starting such a manly and badass army.
I can only advice you on models I field myself, so here we go:

Grey Knight Terminators
Tough as nails terminators... with grenades... that are Troops... do I need to explain? Give them the weapons you think look cool, a good mix is advisable, take note of the halberds and psycannon, as these weapons are... just great.

Strike Squad
Best troop choice in the game? No, they are not as great as Infantry Platoons. But they get close. Give them upgrades if you wish, I don't find it all that necesary, as the basic Grey Knight is still a powerfull model. 10 of them with Psybolt ammuntion gives them an output of 20 S5 AP5 shots, that is awesome.

Interceptor Squad
Very expensive assault marines, equiped with great weapons and they can make a 30" jump once per game. If used well, they rock. If used like me, they will die way too often.
Usefull for diverting our oponents attention, and then jumping away to safetey.

Purgators
Like Devastators, but with Grey Knights instead. Psycannons. Disregard the other options.

Dreadknights
The internet hates the model, but I think you are smarter then the internet. It's cool, no matter what the neckbeards say, don't you agree? It's a terminator strapped on a big robot, how can anyone ever hate it?
I like to give him a heavy incinerator, so he can deal with hordes in ways nothing else in the army can. Also he is good at punching out tanks. S6 is feeble, but he has 2d6 armour penetration to make up for it. People also think he is much more important then he actually is, diverting heavy fire from your terminators.

Inquisition stuff
My main man, the Inquisitor, is not a bad HQ. He sucks, yes, but he costs virtually nothing, and unlocks a cool squadron of henchmen. Just take a look at those henchmen, I'm sure yoú'll find a build that suits your playing style. I designed my squad to quikly attack and kill enemy generals. So far, this has not worked very well.
It seems best to me to design the squad to fulfill only one role, too many different guys in the squad and it becomes very ineffective.

Stormraven
Cool model, cool rules, but how many points?!! I always use one because I like the model so much, but I don't advice it. It's too expensive for a model with slightly more protection then a chimera.

Rhino
Put your men into this, drive them to a location you want to take. Profit.

Razorback
For those smaller squadrons you might want to buy a rhino with a gun. I use one that has a heavy bolter with psybolt ammo. I have no idea if this is good or not, he keeps getting stuck in terrain.
Maybe I should be more careful with it...

As for special characters, it varies wildly from club to club. In my club, you don't see them, ever, and they are not allowed on tournaments. In a club nearby, they always show up with the strongest special characters, because they believe winning is the point of the game, instead of just the objective *smug*.

Hope that helped, but the best way to find out is to play, so grab your wallet, grab your paintbrush, and leave your worries in the real world.

[Kelanen]

Unfortunately Bassik gave you a run down of what's fun, and you asked for competitive - so disregard most of what he has to say, sadly. He seems to advocate based on what he likes models for, and his tournament scene is very unlike the mainstream competitive scene (I've not seen SC's banned in any proper tournament, and not for a decade in even local club tournaments (which is what he means by competitive but I don't). I have to say I've never seen SC's banned in a proper WFB tournament either - either GW run or a national level GT (Indy or proprietary). I've not come across it a club level either in either game, but the fact that you have rings alarm bells - ask at the places you play is the only advice I can give.

It somewhat depends what you are shooting for. For many of us winning is both the objective AND the point. He can sit smug in the losing brackets on day 2 of the tournament.

In particular ALL the most competitive GK list are based around a special Character - be it Draigo, Coteaz or Crowe. If you are not based around one of these you are in the Tier 2 of GK lists at least, and if you're not based around Grand Strategy (sometimes SC based) or maybe Mordrak at a stretch, probably Tier 3. Admittedly a tier 2 GK list can give many other lists a run for their money. The problem you have is that if you are playing a non-SC list casually at your club because it's their rules, it's not really practice for anything, because both your list and everyone elses will change dramatically in a proper tournament. 50% of SM will run Vulkan (and occasionally Khan), DA will all run Belial, GK will run one of the above characters, every Necron will run 1-3 named characters, many BA and most SW lists will and so on. Not every competitive list will have a named character, but most armies not doing so need a good reason not to, and in some armies those reasons really don't exist (conversely in a few armies no serious army plays an SC like Tau, or BT (if we're not counting the mandatory Emperor's Champion), and they are reasonably rare in Orks, IG and Nids), but overall SC's are very common, and pivotal to many army list types (they have a habit of unlocking army types).

Purgators should NEVER be run for example, yet he lists it as the best thing in the slot.

Dreadknights look crap in my opinion, but that actually doesn't matter - it's what they are like stats wise. I don't think the internet hates the Dreadknight, but it's sub-optimal for the best armies. The reason is less about the Dreadknight than the fact it takes a slot that should have a PsyRifleman Dreadnought in it. If you are running a Grand Strategy based list, then actually 2-3 Dreadknights is a good thing. The problem is that this list is not as good as several others, mostly for the reason that it's not got the PsyRifleman (the Venerable version is FAR to expensive). If you drop the Dreadknights, then you really don't have enough use for Grand Strategy, and you are back to a different pattern of list.

Whether you think StormRavens look good or bad they are not good competitively. Too expensive, too easily shot down.

Purifiers and Paladins weren't mentioned (probably because they are almost always used in tandem with a special character to make them Troops) but are amongst the strongest units in the codex. If you are not fielding Special Characters (a name and distinction GW has removed for years btw! - It goes back to 4-5th WFB and 2nd/3rd 40k in HeroHammer days) then you will use no more than one of these units, if at all. As such this SC issue really is the first thing you have to nail down, because it completely changes your list design, and your expected metagame. In fact I'd honestly go so far as to say that a non-SC environment (which I'd have doubted even existed post-millenium prior to this thread) is a whole different game. Everything you read about on Warseer assumes that SC's are viable and commonly used, because in most areas they are.

Inquisitorial Henchmen can have a place, but it's a single unit <100pts place unless you are running Coteaz, in which case you almost certainly are running 6 units, which can vary from Psyker/Jokaero/Servitor firebases to 10 DCA in a Rhino as one of the most efficient CC units in the game, to cheap 12pt scoring units in a transport.

I prefer Rhinos to psybolt Razorbacks, but both are workable, you probably want to go heavily one way or other though. Even for Inquisitorial Henchmen, the Rhino is generally much better than the Chimera because of the Psychic Pilot. At a minimum a Chimera needs Extra Armour which means a base cost of 70pts for 2 extra capacity and more fire points, but a much less reliable transport than the Rhino.

GK armies (and one of the strengths of what's probably the games strongest codex) vary considerably. There are several really good archetypes, and several more not as good, but still better than most of the opposition archetypes! Terminators and Paladins are very viable, but not required, Purifier spam works well, as does Henchman spam, as does MSU razorback spam and Grand Strategy based lists. The only thing common to 90% of them is running PsyRiflemen, and every GK heavy weapon being a PsyCannon.

[Mschaff]

thank you for the help guys!!

[Callidus]

Every Grey Knight army should start out with three Dreadnoughts with double twin linked Autocannons. Then build from there.

[Jericho]

Fairly typical advice from teh interwebs.

Seriously, don't be afraid to try some things out and see what works best for your play style and your opposition. There is more to this codex than just a six-pack Rifleman Dreadnoughts and Paladins in the Troops Slot... and I've watched a few games between my friends playing foot-Eldar vs. Grey Knights. The GK lists taken straight off the interwebs have lost more than they've won against the rather off-the-wall Eldar list, mostly because they rely so much on Riflemen to do a lot of the heavy lifting and they are not exactly designed to be good against weak infantry or Wraithguard/Wraithlords with Fortune. Quad autocannons shred light vehicles, but they kinda suck when you run into armies that don't have them.

There's really not a lot of terrible choices in the GK list, so you can mess around a bit and still end up with a pretty strong army. Some times there's a lot to be gained by playing in a slightly unconventional way, and while it can take a bit longer, learning your army firsthand is probably a lot more valuable than just taking what people on the forums say as gospel.

[Sami]

As for the Psyflemen not being that effective against fortuned troops, that is what Storm Bolters and Psycannons are for. Purifiers are able to bring more Psycannons per unit than Strike Squads, and as they have rending any re-rollable armour save doesn't do squat if you roll a 6 to wound.

The footdar list probably works because people are not used to fighting it, not because it is a good lost. An opponent using a lesser-known codex (and yes, the Eldar book is most certainly lesser-known these days) you can often pull off a surprise win simply because your opponent doesn't know what the actual threats are. This does not work in a tourney environment, where after a game or two of surprise wins you should be paired against people who have a clue and will give you a right kicking for bring an infantry list to a tank fight.

Psyflemen are taken because they have good range, are pretty much impossible to suppress and are VERY reliable at taking out lightly armoured vehicles. The infantry are there to deal with the enemy infantry and heavy vehicles.

[Mschaff]

everyone keeps talking about psyflemen. what exactly is that?

[Kelanen]

Every Grey Knight army should start out with three Dreadnoughts with double twin linked Autocannons. Then build from there.

Apart from noting they should also have Psybolts and search lights, I agree. Probably the best unit in the entire game, and doubly so for the current metagame.

[Mozzamanx]

everyone keeps talking about psyflemen. what exactly is that?

A Dreadnought, packing 2 pairs of Autocannons and Psybolt Ammunition. It throws out 4 shots, twin-linked and with range 48". These are all S8. It is one of the best anti-tank options available to any army in 40k.

[Kelanen]

everyone keeps talking about psyflemen. what exactly is that?

It's shorthand of a shorthand... lol

Rifleman is shorthand for a Dreadnought with a pair of twin-linked autocannons on each side (because it looks very similar to the Rifleman mech in BattleTech). It's used in most loyalist marine codexes.

PsyRifleman is shorthand for a Rifleman (also sometimes called Mortis) configuration with PsyBolt ammo. That's an upgrade only available to GK, cost 5pts, and adds exactly 50% their power against their intended targets (light vehicles, especially transports).

Basic Rifleman are a very good unit - a typical mainstream SM list will be 3x Riflemen (sometimes 2 and a unit of Sternguard or Terminators), 3x AC/LC Preds (a little better, but both have pros and cons), and 3x Landspeeders. Add 2 Troops, and fill out the remaining points depending on level. Rifleman are a very solid unit. A PsyRifleman is as mentioned 50% more potent offensively, as well as having psychic abilities making it virtually immune to Shaken/Stun (and by extension also 2/3 of Glancing hits and 1/3 of Penetrates).

It's a no-brainer. People not running them either don't have the figures, or want to play something different to everyone else (which mostly indicates either a non-competitive, or poorly competitive mindset). In terms of list optimisation and efficiency, it's very hard to justify not running them.

[Kelanen]

As for the Psyflemen not being that effective against fortuned troops, that is what Storm Bolters and Psycannons are for. Purifiers are able to bring more Psycannons per unit than Strike Squads, and as they have rending any re-rollable armour save doesn't do squat if you roll a 6 to wound.

The footdar list probably works because people are not used to fighting it, not because it is a good lost. An opponent using a lesser-known codex (and yes, the Eldar book is most certainly lesser-known these days) you can often pull off a surprise win simply because your opponent doesn't know what the actual threats are. This does not work in a tourney environment, where after a game or two of surprise wins you should be paired against people who have a clue and will give you a right kicking for bring an infantry list to a tank fight.

Psyflemen are taken because they have good range, are pretty much impossible to suppress and are VERY reliable at taking out lightly armoured vehicles. The infantry are there to deal with the enemy infantry and heavy vehicles.

Sami is right as always.

And Footdar is a lousy list taken by people trying to do something different for it's own sake, because they don't like following the herd. Eldar is a weakish codex atm (I say this as a heavy Eldar player), and Footdar in any configuration is a weak list even by Eldar standards (whether the deathstar version or not). Like any list it will do better against people who don't know how to handle it, but non-mainstream lists (unless it's the 'next big thing' just breaking, which only happens with new codexes and rulesets) typically only enjoy that advantage against casual players. Good tournament players will be aware of it, will probably have played against it or something similar, and are much better at making accurate threat assessments on the fly, and using those to inform their tactics. A good player can often beat a bad player with such a list, but they'd beat even more players with a better list.

[Mschaff]

im gonna start building my terminators and i'm building them as paladins. i was gonna give 2 psycannons and i was wondering should i give them halberds or keep the force sword. or am i going about this all wrong and should i be giving them other stuff. also should i make a unit champ with the narthecium an is the brotherhood banner worth it?

[Kelanen]

2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x DaemonHammer would be the standard and most recommended build. Same proportions for every other GK squad, and an extra Halberd where they can only take 1/5 PsyCannons.

The Apothecary and Banner are not worth it unless you have a 10 man unit, and the banner is arguable even then.

[Dazza612]

hi everyone!
Im starting grey knights as my first 40k Army I have played Fantasy but never 40k. All i have bought is the book, 5 terminators and a dreadknight. I just wanted to see if someone could give me a quick rundown of the units and tell me what units are good and what i should stay away from, from a competitive stand point. Also what should i build the terminators and the terminators as?

I have one other question. in fantasy Special characters are typically not allowed in tournaments. In 40k tournaments are they allowed?

It ultimately depends on the level of competitiveness you want to go for. I have been playing grey knights since the old codex and only recently started playing the new codex but play in a very competitive environment.

I have not heard of any of the main tournies where you can't use SC's. The advice you have been given by sami and kelanen I'd listen to. A couple of things I'd add and I apologise if this has been said already as I only skimmed the previous posts. 2 venerable Psyfleman dreads are statistically better than 3 normal psyfle dreads. I have had about 6 games now and once one of them was blown up. Also I'd go pallies over regular terminators. you can take 2 psycannons which are cheaper and you can also make each pallie unique which is great for wound allocation and you have a 2 wound terminator for an extra 15 points a model and they're WS 5. Don't use an apothecary they're not worth it and if you have availanle points make your psycannons master-crafted.

[Dazza612]

The brotherhood banner is worthwhile if you have a 10 man squad which I believe kelanen has already said. Plus if you have enough scoring units already your grand master can take counter attack as his grand strategy so they will have the extra attack anyway.If taking a 10 man pallie squad I'd take draigo to make them troops. I have a pallie with karmazov and draigo lists but loathed to tell you more as in non-comp environments people will say your army is broken.

[Kelanen]

2 venerable Psyfleman dreads are statistically better than 3 normal psyfle dreads.

Not even remotely true! How do you work that out?

TL-BS4 has .89 hits per shot, TL-BS5 has .97 hits per shot. A Ven Dread is a little under 9% more effective for 44% more cost.

3x PsyRifleman costs 405 and generates 10.68 hits, or 2.64/100pts.
2x Ven PsyRiflemen costs 390 and generates 7.76 hits or 1.98/100pts.

There is no contest here, whether you are talking in absolutes or about points efficiency - the standard Dreadnoughts are almost half as good again.

2 Vens *are* about as survivable as 3 normal, but that's not a greatly important metric. Firstly they are both pretty survivable anyway, secondly they fire from long distance where few things can touch them, lastly most CC attacks can't harm them and any nearby GK unit that's not Henchman can easily counterattack and rescue them if needed.

The efficiency of any offensive unit is measured in it's damage output, and there Vens are very much lacking. If you want to play Dreadknights you may have to go that route, but they way I'd look at it is this - if Dreadknights cost you 60pts extra would you still play them? In all fairness, given the increased BS, it's legitimate to ask if you'd pay an extra 54pts. The extra survivability is worth something, but not close to that much. IF you don't mind paying that 'tax' then go for Dreadknights and Ven Dreads, if not don't. I can't imagine any other unit you'd even consider it for.

[Dazza612]

I meant in terms of survivability but for 15 points difference you lose on avg according to your maths just under 3 hits a turn but your dreadnoughts are far more survivable.

[Kelanen]

I meant in terms of survivability but for 15 points difference you lose on avg according to your maths just under 3 hits a turn but your dreadnoughts are far more survivable.

I couldn't put it better myself.

Gaining 3AT hits a turn is HUGE. And we're not even getting into splitting fire at 3 targets rather than 2 (or 3 tarpits rather than 2 in the late game, or needing 3 units to tarpit you rather than 2...).

I'm sorry, but if you don't see how there's no comparison, then you aren't playing at a highly competitive level...

[Dazza612]

Well the 3 extra hits are great assuming all 3 are alive, but seeing as they're easier to blow up you won't have the 3 extra shots. Oh and the person I play regularly would be in the top 10 or top 5 even in australia and everybody else is a tournament gamer.