Starting HE, are Seaguard any good?

[agurus1]

Ok so I am getting back into Fantasy after sitting the last edition out, and I was just wondering if Seaguard are any good as my troops choice. I love the new models for them from the Blood Island set and I have enough for two large units. I just wanted peoples experience with them and over all competitiveness ect... thanks!

[McBoner]

I love the new models for them from the Blood Island set and I have enough for two large units.

At the end of the day, that's all that should matter.

[Mirbeau]

Ok so I am getting back into Fantasy after sitting the last edition out, and I was just wondering if Seaguard are any good as my troops choice. I love the new models for them from the Blood Island set and I have enough for two large units. I just wanted peoples experience with them and over all competitiveness ect... thanks!

Opinions seem mixed on them - some will say never take them, others swear by them. I'm in the middle - they're... alright. Not great, but taking them won't significantly hamper you. I feel they're bit too expensive, and their archery has never done much besides pick off stragglers (skaven weapon teams, skirmishers). If I'm playing tough I generally will stick with the spearmen. But they are lovely miniatures, so more often than not, they make up my core choices.

[Kahadras]

I use a decent size unit as the basis of my core selection in any HE list I run. Conventional Internet Wisdom says that Archer are pretty much the only core you'll need, end of story, no need to look any further. I'm not going to debate the merits of Archers or Spearmen but to look at what Seaguard can offer. The first major issue is the fact that they are expencive. I'm going to say that you pretty much want to always run them with shields which doesn't make them much less expencive per model than the High Elf Special choices such as Phoenix Guard of White Lions. So what do you get for your points?

Well you get an elf armed with a spear, a bow, light armour and a shield. He also benefits from the HE Martial Prowess ability meaning he can fight in one more rank than normal. He's led by a combat champion who has +1 attack rather than a ranged champions ability. He can also benefit from First amoung Equals giving him access to a magic standard. Additionaly as he's armed with a bow he also gains access to the Volley fire special rule. IMHO that's not a bad stack of rules for a core troop choice.

Due to the rules that it gains the unit wants to be both deep and wide to maximise it's abilities (and probably have a magic banner to boot). I feel the best set up is 7 wide and 4 deep. This gives your four ranks of attacks in close combat (2 normal + spears + Martial Prowess) Plus it gives you 14 bow shots or 22 if you use Volley fire. The unit also possesses a 5+ armour save and is a good target for buff spells like Shield of Saphery, Flesh to Stone or Wyssan's Wildform. I'd advise giving the unit the Banner of Eternal Flame to make their attacks (both in combat and at range) flaming. The unit is also a good place to locate a BSB as well. The unit can benefit from the improved Leadership and reroll the Noble can provide along with the extra punch the character can deal in combat.

So on the up side you can gain a deep block unit that can both shoot and can fight in four ranks in combat, that is a good unit to bunker a BSB in, can get the most out of a cheap banner that grants you flaming attacks, has an average resilliance for a HE unit (toughness 3, 5+ save), can Stand and Shoot as a charge reaction and is a reasonable target for a lot of buff spells (all the way up to Mindrazor). On the down side they can't fire as far as Archers and are more expencive than both the Archer and Spearmen choices. I'd say that this looks like a pretty good Seaguard unit IMHO

Noble + BSB, Great wepaon, Armour of Caldor
+ 27 Seaguard + FC, Shields, Banner of Eternal Flame

Kahadras

[agurus1]

thanks for the advice guys! given me a lot of food for thought, but any more information is more than welcome!

[Snake22486]

I think of them in the jack of all trades, master of none category. if i want to play a defensive battle, then im spending more per model for less range on shooting. if im playing an offensive battle then i can't march with them if i want to use the shooting i paid for.

i never end up using them. can't justify it to myself.

[agurus1]

So probably good for an all comers list as it gives me options?

[boli]

End of the day they look pretty, but in a min-max that is all they offer an army... but they still look very pretty

[CmdrLaw]

I just run Spearmen as they are the cheapest core option and can do a lot of damage when buffed, S3 shooting doesn't really achieve much. But I use the IoB seagaurd for them as the models are lovely.

[Graxy]

Some people like spearmen, some like archers, some like sea guard. Really, with the high elf core choices especially, It all comes down to personal preferance. Personally, I like archers but let me tell you, in 2014/15 when high elves get re-done and silver helms are back to being core, they're going to be getting so much more attention frm pretty much every high elf player on the planet.

[decker_cky]

Some people like spearmen, some like archers, some like sea guard.

Pretty much this. Spearmen are cheap so give you more combat models. Archers shoot better, but are pretty useless in combat. Seaguard aren't at good at shooting, and are expensive for just combat, but having some shooting helps to deal with some of the chaff out there. You'll want to make good use of swift reforms to get the best value out of seaguard, but they can be a solid unit.

[agurus1]

You'll want to make good use of swift reforms to get the best value out of seaguard, but they can be a solid unit.

so you mean have them lined out to take advantage of volley fire, then quick reform to receive a charge?

[decker_cky]

so you mean have them lined out to take advantage of volley fire, then quick reform to receive a charge?

That's what I'd do. 10 wide until there's a significant threat of being charged, then reform down to 5 wide.

[T10]

Sea Guard in standard formation (5-wide) or horde (10-wide)?

It's pretty obvious that if you have 10 models (or less, somehow) then the standard formation is usually best. At 20 models or more, the difference in number of volley fire shots fired between the two formations is a constant five shots per round.

Regardless of the size of the unit, when it makes a swift reform from horde to standard formation it only gets to shoot with 10 models, and it also takes the -1 To Hit penalty for moving and shooting. It goes without saying that the larger the unit, the more shots are wasted by this maneuver. If your unit was 20 models, you wasted 10 shots. If it was 30 models you wasted 15 shots.

(Incidently: The number of wasted shots is equal to half the models in the unit.)

Conversively, if you stick with a standard formation then you may well not need to make that swift reform at all. That means you get an extra round of volley fire shooting.

If your Sea Guard unit is 20 models, then you should make sure to have at least two rounds of shooting in horde formation before switching to standard formation to break even with sticking to standard formation from the start and shooting for three turns. If your unit is 30 models you should have at lest three rounds of shooting before reforming.

(incidently: The number of shooting rounds you need to break even is equal to one per 10 models in the unit.)

The mathhammer is pretty clear: The bigger your unit of Sea Guard, the better served you are with using the standard formation.

[decker_cky]

Sea Guard in standard formation (5-wide) or horde (10-wide)?

It's pretty obvious that if you have 10 models (or less, somehow) then the standard formation is usually best. At 20 models or more, the difference in number of volley fire shots fired between the two formations is a constant five shots per round.

Regardless of the size of the unit, when it makes a swift reform from horde to standard formation it only gets to shoot with 10 models, and it also takes the -1 To Hit penalty for moving and shooting. It goes without saying that the larger the unit, the more shots are wasted by this maneuver. If your unit was 20 models, you wasted 10 shots. If it was 30 models you wasted 15 shots.

(Incidently: The number of wasted shots is equal to half the models in the unit.)

Conversively, if you stick with a standard formation then you may well not need to make that swift reform at all. That means you get an extra round of volley fire shooting.

If your Sea Guard unit is 20 models, then you should make sure to have at least two rounds of shooting in horde formation before switching to standard formation to break even with sticking to standard formation from the start and shooting for three turns. If your unit is 30 models you should have at lest three rounds of shooting before reforming.

(incidently: The number of shooting rounds you need to break even is equal to one per 10 models in the unit.)

The mathhammer is pretty clear: The bigger your unit of Sea Guard, the better served you are with using the standard formation.

...unless you move your unit. I find it pretty rare to see armies that just want to stand around. Going wide then swift reforming into standard formation lets you respond to threats as they gain relevance. With only normal bows, you even have to move to shoot turn 1.

[russellmoo]

I don't know why you don't see units of 50 sea guard- take shadow- force through mindrazor and it's a potential 51 ASF Strength 9 attacks

Even if you are playing defensively- this now forces your opponent to not charge them- which is alright because the unit will volley fire into them, (and possibly cast withering before doing so)

The problem players have with sea guard is the same that HE players have with all of their core choices, and it is this- If not for the requirement of 25% core HE players wouldn't take any core, because their specials are so good, and fantastic looking on the table-

[Artinam]

Well the thing is, you can cast mindrazor on them. However your cheaper by doing that on a dedicated frontline units like Spearmen (who are cheaper in point cost).

Its the dedicated role vs the Jack of all trades discussion. For a beginner they might help in learning the game since you they can do more then one thing.

[Trains_Get_Robbed]

LSG = MEDIOCRE

Are LSG worth taking?

Simply put no. In a nutshell, LSG (with shields, the only way to take them) are over-costed (by half a spearmen mind you aka 4 points) for what they do, and are also overcosted for what they don't allow you do like: redirect in a pinch, and provide a effective bunker.

Why are LSG bad in compared to Spearmen?

Rather obvioulsy, becuase Spears are cheaper, and when a general wants a block of steadfast troops, the more bodies the better.

And compared to Archers?

At 11 points a model, Archers seem to have similar advantages to that of Spearmen at first, however closer look tells you 30in' bows. A 6in' distance on the table top is huge. That extra 6in' means a general doesn't have to within 24in' -the standard range for almost every good shooting unit in the game: Organ Gun, Black Powder, Volley Gun, Spells, etc. . .. Although this is good, keep in mind, H.E are heavy magic using army, and alot of spells are 24in, thus, you may end up within that range even if you don't want to.


What is the best H.E core then?

My personal perference is choosing a bunker for a Lvl 2 and a additional "back-up" bunker incase the first one is torched, which leads me to include two Archer units every game at least. Upon this point, I will normally include a unit of Spears just provide steadfast, before adding more shooting.

It depends on the level of game being played, and the type of list being ran. If you need units to clear chaff take Archers, to provide big blocks chose Spearmen. Both types of units can even be used as redirectors, and of deployment "bluffs" and essentially just towel down their points, not being needed to win the game. This being said, it is true that 30 Archers Horde formation is just as good as an equal number of Spearmen 5xwide -something to think about, depending on the size game your playing.

How does your list look?

The last question for me right now lies in this. If a General has no Bolt Throwers, and no way to deal with chaff -he might want Archers. Meanwhile, a army that doesn't have enough "punch" can buy more time by having magic be cast upon them or the combat units they are helping.

Theres too many details I couldn't cover in my current state and condition, thus I will leave it for tomorrow or later.

[Pointy Headed Elven Paladin]

I don't know why you don't see units of 50 sea guard- take shadow- force through mindrazor and it's a potential 51 ASF Strength 9 attacks

Even if you are playing defensively- this now forces your opponent to not charge them- which is alright because the unit will volley fire into them, (and possibly cast withering before doing so)

The problem players have with sea guard is the same that HE players have with all of their core choices, and it is this- If not for the requirement of 25% core HE players wouldn't take any core, because their specials are so good, and fantastic looking on the table-

The reason IMO you don't see many HE armies field 50 man units of LSG is because at 675 pts. (that's with full command & equipped with shields) they are easy points for an opponent to pick up unless they are being "baby sat" by an attending archmage (usually equipped with Lore of Life, Lore of Shadows, or High Magic). If the HE archmage is doing this then it isn't doing it's job in taking out the opposing army in the magic phase or buffing the Elites so they can do the job.

Opposing Warmachines, Monsterous Infantry/Cavalry, regular Cavalry, Elite Infantry, Mass Small Arms fire (most armies small arms fire have equal range to the LSG's bows) etc. can roll over LSG since they've got all the standard issues that all the core HE troops have (average toughness & weak armor saves).

I've used LSG on occassion usually if I'm planning the army around them (say for a bowline army or when I field my Maiden Guard for an Avelorn theme army) but as you've stated they tend to get less useful as the army point values scale upward where it makes more sense to use the extra points on more bodies/elite choices.

That being said I think LSG are probably more useful at point values between 1000 to 2000 pts. but once it goes over 2000 pts. it probably make more sense to field combined core of Archers/Spearmen instead of just LSG.

[T10]

...unless you move your unit. I find it pretty rare to see armies that just want to stand around. Going wide then swift reforming into standard formation lets you respond to threats as they gain relevance. With only normal bows, you even have to move to shoot turn 1.

Indeed, being allowed to operate under optimal conditions through-out the game is at the very core of mathhammer.

-T10