There's nothing in Dreadfleet to invalidate that the Bretonnian fleet has got any weaker. It's still there in the stories about Grom, at least.Originally Posted by Craze_b0i
There's nothing in Dreadfleet to invalidate that the Bretonnian fleet has got any weaker. It's still there in the stories about Grom, at least.
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While i do not have the time to look and find which excavate army books have the map with passes i do have this nifty little attachment from my map collection, i will get back to you with details once i get home.
But do note, Karak Norn is mentioned as early as 5 edition dwarf army book, and even features in Dark Omen the game when you try to get to bretonnia! The only problem is that it, like much of the warhammer world cant decide where to stay on a map.
Last edited by nagash66; 09-05-2012 at 11:27.
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I think it might be set part way through the Storm of Chaos incursion- since in the Dreadfleet novella, Volkmar's already (from the narration) "seen things that would drive normal men to madness".
Maybe it begins right after Volkmar's return from his captivity at the hands of Bel'Lakor?
I thought Karak norn was right in the corner of the grey mountains bordering Athel loren. I know the wood elves dont particularly like the dwarfs of Norn much. Im sure i remember some old fluff about wood elves lurring a group of dwarfs into the woods where they then thinned their nu,bers down with ambushes until there was none left. This after the dwarves cut down a few achres to fuel there fires and build there machines. I think it may have been in the 4th edition wood elf book. But what im saying is i didnt think that norn actually bordered Bretonia without going through The forest of athel loren first. I'm at work so cant actually back that up right now mind.
You might very well be right, you are ringing some bells.
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Well i guess even if dwarves were that far south im sure they would still have Small outposts further north Keeping an eye out for any Orc incursions. Or even the sneaky tree elves >.> The thing ive never really got though being a bretonnia player, is why dont other armies try using the Lance formation with their cavalry. If it works so well for the brets why havent others tried it. I know They are the meant to be the finest cavalry in the old world, which probably explains it. but just always wondered. I mean Knights errant are young knights, probably no more skilled than a veteran imperial knight but they still get the lance formation and i can understand Elves being snobby about the idea but their not dumb either. plus they have centuries of horsemanship over the brets. I know i know you shouldnt put emphasis on rules when talking about fluff but still...
You might as well ask why High Elf armies don't use detachments, or the Empire doesn't use pikes. There's no particularly good background reason for it; it's just a matter of game balance and flavour.
Aye i know what you mean but ive just always wondered why empire wouldnt use it. I mean Bretonnians not using detachments i get. Their infantry are not pro soldiery. but i get what your saying. but apart from that, for example, why wouldnt a bretonnian vampire noble, when using undead cavalry field them in Lance as surely thats how he would know how to use them. That sort of thing.
High elves are 'pro soldiery' and don't use detachments eitherneither do the dwarfs, and they have a lot of cultural contact and influence on/from the empire.
It's a flavour thing, but also bretonnia is the army of massed knightly charges, while they're smaller support elements in other armies, who don't roam in units of 12'ish anyway.
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Elves and dwarves tend to be a bit uppity when it comes to the lesser races weird ways though. I mean after seeing dwarf powder weapons The empire managed to get the dwarves to teach them engineering, Like wise with the elves teaching magic. But i guess they saw a benefit with teaching the stupid manlings for their own goals. Like wise the brets prolly wouldnt be keen on letting the empire into their secrets of mounted warfare. If the Empire would even really be that interested anyway. I just would have thought with the Empire being in such a dangerous place in the old world they would use any advantage they could get their hands on if it would improve their states survivability. Anyway im dragging the whole thread off topic. I'll be quiet now promise
Elves and dwarves tend to be a bit uppity when it comes to the lesser races weird ways though. I mean after seeing dwarf powder weapons The empire managed to get the dwarves to teach them engineering, Like wise with the elves teaching magic. But i guess they saw a benefit with teaching the stupid manlings for their own goals. Like wise the brets prolly wouldnt be keen on letting the empire into their secrets of mounted warfare. If the Empire would even really be that interested anyway. I just would have thought with the Empire being in such a dangerous place in the old world they would use any advantage they could get their hands on if it would improve their states survivability. Anyway im dragging the whole thread off topic. I'll be quiet now promise
It not really that much of toppic
On of the reasons that bretonnians have it easy or empire has it hard is that bretonnia is a much more settled land
If you look at the map the epmpire is basicly one uge forrest. And in the forrest there be evil (beastman goblins ect)
While bretonnia is more a open plane easily kept save by the mounted armies of bretonnia.
Also bretonnia made some real effort to purge ther lands from evil forces in the form of the errantry wars and the ongoing quests by knights.
Good call Athelassan, economic reasons are more satisfying - Bretonnia is a good deal less wooded and hostile than the Provinces of the Empire, the country can simply sustain more people. The population is also more spread out with thousands of tiny hamlets, villages and domains (each with a resident family of Knights) rather than clustered together in fortified towns and cities. The structure of the society (and the brutal squalor of the lower classes) contributes to a larger population of low-level nobles devoted to hitting things with pointy sticks from horseback.
Empire cannons and handguns are not exactly reliable either, for every engagement that the day is clear and the Knights get blasted there is going to be another where the powder is wet or the wagon carrying the cannon balls got stolen by goblins.
Quite why Elves don't use gunpowder at all is not clear, they certainly have skilled alchemists (and I recall Malus Darkblade using magical/alchemically enhanced bolt-thrower bolts) but maybe they just prefer to use magic instead and never saw the point of digging nitre and mixing sulfur and charcoal when they've already got a whole tower full of chaps in tall hats who achieve the same effect pointing a finger and shouting 'Bang!'.
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Ok so i dug in my Dwarf background sources and found the passage in question, for those interested it is in Stone and Steel page 37 in the Karak-Norn section.
On Karak Norn and Bretonnia, ' The Grey mountain Dwarfs enjoy a relatively peaceful co-existence with the Bretonnians', however it goes on to say, ' They side with the Empire in times of war with Bretonnia, and have been known to close all major passes in the southern Grey mountains, including the the well traveled Montdidier pass that transverses the southern end of the range, near the vaults'.
I knew i had read it somewhere, i had just mixed up its position in the Grey mountains. I do not find this a surprise as Dwarfs take oaths very seriously and the alliance made between them and Sigmar has not been forgotten.
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So wait, I'm not completely understanding it. They side in times of peace with the Empire and in times of war with Bretonnia?
Bretonnians ARE NOT a pure Knightly army.
Half the army choices consist out of Peasants and Damsels.
'Pride cometh before a choppa in the face'
They don't war with Bretonnia themselves, but side with the Empire when it wars with the Bretonnians.
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Also crossbows were far more efficient in real life than early hand cannons, and long bows nearly as efficient as crossbows so its no big loss. They also live in a far less hostile land because they control most of their land where the empire only control islands in a big sea of forest that's pretty hostile.
Brettonia is also a united kingdom, with a strict feudal system and a uncomplicated succession , where the empire is more like a dozen (or so) small nations that usually mind their own business and only band together when faced with a massive outside threat they cant deal with on their own.
And Brettonia is mostly fields and farmed areas, which means that its probably richer (per capita) than the empire, now because they're less threatened there are much more segregation though so most of that end up in the nobles pockets (or more likely on their tables)
And that's not considering the fact that the Brettonians had been practising magic for nearly a thousand years when the collage of magic was founded. And the noble class literary has magic flowing in their veins .At least the king of Brettonia is both a grail knight and a noble and I think he has children (as a more old fashioned monarchy I'm guessing his oldest son will be king after him?) so I guess all grail knight are allowed to have families, and pass some of their power on to their offspring. (Gilles le Breton's son was crowned after him so Brettonia seems to be a hereditary monarchy, and Gilles was himself a grail knight which supports my point)
Its as simple as Brettonia is a way safer land, and while the empire may be stronger most of their armed forces are tied up patrolling against Beastmen and orcs. In a all out war i think they would be pretty evenly matched (cause the empire will still have to defend its northern and eastern borders). This is also the reason why Brettonia is able to crusade more frequently than the empire, because they have less trouble at home.
Oh and on the point of if they fought the empire, they do. There's the story of an empire unit from one land attacking the other thinking them to be Brettonian invaders. I'd say as soon as they aren't fighting a common enemy they're busy killing each other. then again the elector counts on the west attacking Brettonia isn't that strange since the elector counts seems to be taking land from each other with regular frequency too.
As i said the empire is more of a culture and a military alliance than a real kingdom. Its just the way the warhammer world is, even the high elves, dwarfs and lizardmen fight each other form time to time (though i guess the high elves are more about using armies as political leverage than actually fighting most of the time)
Last edited by TheDungen; 10-05-2012 at 03:33.
I wouldn't look to fondly on Bretonnian magic. The Empire has en entire state sanctioned system where every magician is put under direct control (theorethically) of the same state (I guess the Emperor and his rival nobles). So you have an entire academic site for research and development.
Mages in Bretonnia are a lot more loose in every sense. They only hold loyality to the Lady of the Lake (according to some a Wood Elf) and will support the nobles (trough nature magic). However, no King or any Noble holds any kind of influence on them. Yeah they are there, probably for a longer time. But they are more like a pure female priest class following only the instructions from their Divine power.
Bretonnians ARE NOT a pure Knightly army.
Half the army choices consist out of Peasants and Damsels.
'Pride cometh before a choppa in the face'
They're also watched, dogged, restricted at every step, and when they finally go out, there's witch hunters and priests of Sigmar patiently waiting (and hoping) for them to make a wrong move and burn them. I'm not sure the imperial system is an advantage.
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