how does brentonnia survive?

[Artinam]

They can work within sanctions which is nothing like those in Bretonnia. All boys and girls who develop magical talents (and are not send away to the Imperial Colleges) are taken away by the Fey Enchantress and only a handful of the females taken return 'brainwashed' and trained. In the Empire, everyone who (admittedly isn't burned) is send to the colleges, giving the Empire access to a very large potential of magic users. Its not perfect, but with witchhunters to keep them in check so they don't go rogue.

In Bretonnia the ladies can actually topple a government should the Fey Enchantress will it. (they did, the King was send away and a Grail Knight took his place).

[Skopey]

Was wondering if Tilea and/or Estalia have any preferances about trading with Bretonnia or the empire. As im guessing this would bring a lot of gold into the bretonnnian coffers. Ive not seen any fluff mentioning it mind but i'm presuming that Bretonnia would take alot of their trade being on their doorstep. And yeah i realise they probably do most of their trade via the seas but then im guessing Bretonnia has a pretty hefty pressence in that part of the sea which could maybe "influence" where they trade first as their navy isn't that bad apparently ( though i remember decimating bret fleets in Man'o'war)

[nagash66]

Which brings us to Bretonnians biggest weak point, the entire kingdom is controlled by the Wood Elves by means of the Fey Enchantress and her coven of wood elf trained and taught damsels and religion. The 'lady' might as well be printed as elf goddess of life and rebirth and be done with it.

[Artinam]

That is debatable, while there certainly are big signs that they have had some impact there is no story (except one) that states that she is actually Wood-Elf.
Second Wood Elfs kill Bretonnians on sight. Even in the story where its more or less intuned, the Lady is not a Wood-Elf but a similar Goddess/spirit.

[nagash66]

That is debatable, while there certainly are big signs that they have had some impact there is no story (except one) that states that she is actually Wood-Elf.
Second Wood Elfs kill Bretonnians on sight. Even in the story where its more or less intuned, the Lady is not a Wood-Elf but a similar Goddess/spirit.

1)They control Bretonnians only source of magic users.
2) they kidnap any child they like ( and all magic prone ones) at will for no reprisal.
3) Once a year Kurnouns (sp?) and his gang of deamon elves have a rampage in the south provinces, again no action is ever taken against them.
4) By means of the Damsels and the Fey enchantress they not only get to elect/veto the King but also control Bretonnians most elite warrior brotherhood the Grail knights.

So when one state controls the election of another states leader, gets to kidnap any number of its children ( and keep the boys as slaves, while it trains/brainwashes the girls thru-out their childhoods), control its means of magical defense and knowledge which also happens to be the representatives of the state religion, and every so often lead a sort invasion which wipes some villages of the face of the earth while also exalting HUGE influence on its most powerful military force What do you call it?

Also wanted to add that this is not 1 single book or source, it has been hinted or outright stated in numerous books ranging from army-books to BL books to the RPG source books, it is a purposelessly inserted theme that has been strengthened by GW for years.

[Artinam]

And all these points makes sense if you believe the Lady is a Wood-Elf Diety .
If you don't, then the Wood Elf dont take the children and dont have influence in electing the King but the Lady has.

Against Kurnous there are actions taken, they usually end in a lot of dead Knights (comes from the same book as you take the Bretonnian boys are servants).
The Guardians of the Forest book is the only book that strongly insinuates that the Lady is indeed a Wood-Elf deity.

But shall we agree to disagree as we are dragging it a bit offtopic.

[nagash66]

And all these points makes sense if you believe the Lady is a Wood-Elf Diety .
If you don't, then the Wood Elf dont take the children and dont have influence in electing the King but the Lady has.

Against Kurnous there are actions taken, they usually end in a lot of dead Knights (comes from the same book as you take the Bretonnian boys are servants).
The Guardians of the Forest book is the only book that strongly insinuates that the Lady is indeed a Wood-Elf deity.

But shall we agree to disagree as we are dragging it a bit offtopic.

This is not off topic, it is important to understand the workings of the kingdom to understand how it survives in the war-hammer world.

The children thing is given both by the Black Library book and the RPG source-book, the latter presenting it as fact, the current Bretonnian book also hints at this with the statements that the popular belief that kids with magic have 1) been affected by the fey ( bretonnian term for elf) and 2) are taken by the Enchantress to a 'better place' with the boys never seen again. So it is too widely supported to be despite. If BL WFRPG and the army book can all agree on something i take it as fact.

The whole 'wood elf conspiracy theory' was reinforced as recently as the Red Duke novel so 6-7 months ago? Which also happens to be the most recent backround information given to bretonnia.

Having a powerful third party helping maintain stability and power in the realm in the form of the wood elfs has undoubtedly helped Bretonnia become the power that it is.

As for Kurnous, having the local knights defend their property is not action, it is reaction. Action would be the building of defenses around the forest, or retaliatory attacks against the wood elfs. Taking up the sword when your village is being raided is a bit late to the party.

[Athelassan]

there is no story (except one) that states that she is actually Wood-Elf.

Isn't that an oxymoron? I assume the story you're talking about is Savage City?

The Wood Elves don't always kill Bretonnians. It depends on what mood they're in, what the Bretonnians' intentions are, and so on. The forest spirits tend to be unfriendly but the elves aren't always. See Guardians of the Forest, and the messenger Louis the Rash sent to treat with the King and Queen in the Woods. The elves do have an unfortunate tendency, though, to overlook the time dilation effects of their magic kingdom where humans are concerned, and the humans don't always survive their return to Bretonnia.

[TheDungen]

I think that the lady might be Isha actually an elven goddess rather than a elf. Or Ariel as the avatar of Isha, anyway Ariel is as much an elf as Orion is, she may look more like it but like him she's a demigod.
But honestly blessing knights like she does with the grail knights and the way she does with the damsels seems to be way beyond Ariel's power. If she could do it why haven't she done it to her wood elf followers?

And like the grail knights the damsels and prophetesses are blessed by the lady making them more powerful than they would otherwise be, I'd say that Brettonia is stronger in magic than the empire. for whiel the empire has dedicated casts there's magic everywhere in brettonia.

[ManOfRust]

I don't really understand the vehemence of feeling some posters have for the Wood Elf Conspiracy Theory.

The Wood Elf background has evolved over the last few editions as well. Wood Elves used to be a lot more like a kingdom that just happened to be in a forest, complete with fortresses and buildings made of living trees. Now the Elves are much more played as part of the eco-system, slaved to the forest as much as the birds, shrubs and tree-spirits. What motivates the Forest of Loren is not so much a government of Elves as the pounding reservoirs of Jade and Amber magic coursing through every twig, branch and Fang-Weasel. If it were as simple as Ariel pinning back her ears and wearing wellies to go preach to the Damsels then it would be a conspiracy.

As it is, the Wood Elves are ruled by monarchs essentially possessed by spirits of Life (who, by the way, demand a living sacrifice once a year). It's your interpretation over who is in charge - Elf or God.

Are Isha and the Lady of the Lake linked? Probably, as much as magic in the Warhammer World is understood (they both draw from the same winds of magic). Are they the same? No, I wouldn't say so, they are formed from the minds of different groups - there are going to be differences. All the Gods are linked to the Great Four of Chaos but they are not all the same.

Grail Knight and Damsels are blessed with magical strength in much the same way as Wild Riders, if you think that the source of that magic is Elven sorcery then it's a conspiracy - if you think that the source is the winds of Magic then it doesn't have to be.

[Urgat]

The Lady is certainly not an elf, or, well, she's the most powerful elf ever, and she doesn't like her own kind. She's certainly able to grant her blessing to any knight that prays for her (regardless of their numbers or location), and won't remove said blessing when the Brets are fighting the woodies. I do think the Elves are linked to her in some way (the fey enchantress is clearly an elf), but I don't believe for a second they control the Lady. The lady has pissed all over them often enough for it not to be the case. None of the values she holds dear mean squat to the WE either, btw.
I'll stick to my groundless belief that while Isha is an embodiment of the spirit of the forest of Athel Loren, the Lady is the one of the rivers and lakes of Bretonnia. That makes them sisters

[TheDungen]

I'd say that Isha as worshipped by the high elves and isha as worshipped by the wood elves are nearly as different as the lady of the lake. My guess would that they're all aspects of a single entity. In the same way Taal and Korunos is probably the same entity but diffrent aspects.

[Artinam]

The last bit I can agree with and seems a lot solid. I'm wondering what WHRPG book your referring to but if its the Knights of the Grail one, to my knowlege (have to look over it again to double check) doesn't mention the whole Wood Elf conspiracy as truth. Then I can use the whole 'is WHRPG canon' argument or not, but I prefer to think it is canon.

The Red Duke book I haven't read yet so I cannot comment on it (You mean the story in the Knights of the Grail book perhaps?), maybe that one spells out that the Wood Elfs are behind Bretonnian stability. The only book I've read that could indicate that Wood Elfs are indeed stealing Bretonnian children as well as influencing Grail Knights is the Guardians of the Forest one where the Knight encounters Bretonnian male children as servants. Its mentioned again briefly when he spots the Lady and where other nearby Wood-Elfs are like 'Ow yeah, he believes that womanly vision is the Lady'. In the same book, the Wild Hunt goes wrong and ravages the country side. Knights face kurnous and get slaughtered, The same book also indicates Athel Loren hates intruders with a passion and kills them off rather swiftly. In the 5th edition Perilous Lance Campaign book the Bretonnian invade Athel Loren, break a piece of it down to restore a Grail Chapel. Still its probably outdated fluff as it also involves Wood Elf 'Knights' jousting for a certain price.

To me, I'm not bitter about the Wood-Elf theory but it is in my opinion not hard fact, just hinted at and perhaps partly correct. If its true well my army background will try to avoid them funny elves. If Elves abuse the whole Lady thing and try to steer the Bretonnian a bit then why not.

[nagash66]

The last bit I can agree with and seems a lot solid. I'm wondering what WHRPG book your referring to but if its the Knights of the Grail one, to my knowlege (have to look over it again to double check) doesn't mention the whole Wood Elf conspiracy as truth. Then I can use the whole 'is WHRPG canon' argument or not, but I prefer to think it is canon.

Page 42 states word of god that 1) The fey enchantress is an elf and even gives you (the player) the chance to spot this if you have had prior meetings with elves.

It goes on to state that players who notice can put 2 and 2 together and question the very nature of the lady of the lake, it goes on to say ' There are some question however, to which the answers should remain mysterious'. Much more info is given here and there in the book too.

The Red Duke book I haven't read yet so I cannot comment on it (You mean the story in the Knights of the Grail book perhaps?)

I mean the Black Library book called The Red Duke ( great book btw) which also drops some heavy hints and outright points towards the whole conspiracy.

maybe that one spells out that the Wood Elfs are behind Bretonnian stability. The only book I've read that could indicate that Wood Elfs are indeed stealing Bretonnian children as well as influencing Grail Knights is the Guardians of the Forest one where the Knight encounters Bretonnian male children as servants. Its mentioned again briefly when he spots the Lady and where other nearby Wood-Elfs are like 'Ow yeah, he believes that womanly vision is the Lady'.

Yeah this book did away with the whole cloak and dagger angle and just beat people over the head with it.

In the same book, the Wild Hunt goes wrong and ravages the country side. Knights face kurnous and get slaughtered, The same book also indicates Athel Loren hates intruders with a passion and kills them off rather swiftly.

The wood elf books states word of god on page 13 that there are many nights of the years where bretonnians lock themselves in their houses in fear of the wild hunt.

To me, I'm not bitter about the Wood-Elf theory but it is in my opinion not hard fact, just hinted at and perhaps partly correct. If its true well my army background will try to avoid them funny elves. If Elves abuse the whole Lady thing and try to steer the Bretonnian a bit then why not.

I use to be like that, till i counted just how many times 'hints' and ' outright stated' it had become, and in how many formats ( BL, RPG, Armybooks) over how many years. Too much evidence to ignore or brush off as fluke.

In the 5th edition Perilous Lance Campaign book the Bretonnian invade Athel Loren, break a piece of it down to restore a Grail Chapel. Still its probably outdated fluff as it also involves Wood Elf 'Knights' jousting for a certain price.

While many things have changed since 5th ed, this does not contradict what i am saying, nor has any reason to be ignored.

[Artinam]

Didn't the wild hunt leave Athel Loren because of the destruction of the waystone by some Beastmen? Is this the reason why Bretonnia is 'plagued'
'

[Craze_b0i]

Ok so i dug in my Dwarf background sources and found the passage in question, for those interested it is in Stone and Steel page 37 in the Karak-Norn section.

On Karak Norn and Bretonnia, ' The Grey mountain Dwarfs enjoy a relatively peaceful co-existence with the Bretonnians', however it goes on to say, ' They side with the Empire in times of war with Bretonnia, and have been known to close all major passes in the southern Grey mountains, including the the well traveled Montdidier pass that transverses the southern end of the range, near the vaults'.

I knew i had read it somewhere, i had just mixed up its position in the Grey mountains. I do not find this a surprise as Dwarfs take oaths very seriously and the alliance made between them and Sigmar has not been forgotten.

Yes as your book says the Montdidier is at the southern tip of the range, though it does not go to Karak Norn. The location is marked here http://www.gitzmansgallery.com/Warha...07%20Color.jpg.

[ManOfRust]

That's a nice map, usefully it does also show how well protected Bretonnia is with mountains on all sides and the only really open land routes are to the other Human realms of the Empire and Estalia. As safe as anywhere in the old world anyway...

Although the Northern coastal duchies are also perilously close to Norsca by this map, it must be a pretty regular thing for the Norse to have a jolly in their long-boats. Is it covered in the current fluff just how powerful the Bretonnian Navy is? Do they still use cannons as per Man O'War?

I must also question how sane the travellers through Montdidier must be! You're within bowshot of the Forest of Loren the whole way and pass within spitting distance of the Lichemasters tower and not one but two Skaven strongholds!

[Athelassan]

Is it covered in the current fluff just how powerful the Bretonnian Navy is?

Of course not.

Do they still use cannons as per Man O'War?

I would say they do, although there's nothing post-Man O'War to indicate either way. I can't see how they could stand up to any cannon-using fleet otherwise: they're probably a more significant weapon at sea than on land. As for how this is reconciled with knightly vows, I like to think that naval combat is considered "un-knightly" to begin with, so ship captains tend not to be knights - therefore not bound by the ridiculous codes of practice that would make them ineffective.

[Artinam]

The Knight of the Grail book claims that their main trading city has towers with cannons. I forgot which one it is... really need to buy that book someday.
Man O War also claimed, the captains were generally Knights, but given more leeway since they weren't on land. But I'll double check tonight. The majority of people on those ships are Peasants and they are excempted from the ban on missile weapons. They can buy the Technology, or have it quite easily I guess.

In addition, from Man O War also came the inspiration for Pegasus Knights as they are an available units there. There is no new fluff to update the old one (with a few vague snippits).
They had 3 types of Ships. 2 big ones with cannons, and a coastal vessel with a Trebuchet crewed partly by condemned criminals. They are also referred in the book as the best sailors in the world and they get advantages for it. Also the majority of the fleet is under direct command of the King (IIRC), so its quite centralised.

[ManOfRust]

I guess that makes sense for them to be good sailors, lots of jobs on age-of-sail vessels only come with experience and if your crew is made up of peasants with few rights and criminals with none then they hardly get to leave the ships ever so they only get better at them. Until they die of scurvy anyway

I don't really see a conflict with the captain being a knight and the ship having cannons, HE'S not going to be down on the gun deck after all. Captain of a Kings vessel is probably going to be a commision the noble holds in service to the King, same as an appointment as Castellan of a Castle owned directly by the King. The knight doesn't even have to like it, it is a duty. If the King has gold to buy dwarfish steel and dwarfish masons for Couronne then he's going to be able to afford good dwarfish cannons for his navy. Although he'd probably get three Tilean ones for the same price. And the filthy criminal rogues on the coastal guard, being little better than orcs, can stick with catapults!

It's not even out of the question for someone to model the trebuchets for their Bretonnian army as something more akin to Dark Age/Reconquista period siege mortar (Strength 10 afterall), Bretonnia lacks any sort of central learning or acadamies so anything of the sort is just not going to be common rather than impossible.