Need some help. Menoth vs Cryx Strategy.

[ProAndrew]

Hello. I just started playing warmachine. I am playing as Menoth and my friend is playing as Cryx. Every time he beats me and I can't figure out how to beat his army. We are normally playing 25 point killbox.

His list looks something like this:

Deneghra
Satix Raiders
Satix Raider Captain
Bane Thralls
Bane Lord Tartarus
Nightmare

I'm using this list:

Grand Exemplar Kreoss
Crusader
Crusader
4 Choir of Menoth
5 Exemplar Cinerators
6 Exemplar Errants 5 points + Officer and Standard
The Covenant of Menoth

He uses his feat so I can't charge him and then I just die. What am I doing wrong? Any good advice on tactics? Thanks.

[Warsmith_Kaile]

First off, if you are going to be playing against Cryx you are going to need more ranged attacks. Drop the second Crusader for a Revenger you get pretty much the same stats +1 SPD and an Arc Node. Also drop the Cinerators, Not sure what they do but for their points you can probably get something better. The Covenant is probably going to better suit your needs at higher point games so there is also something to swap out. Maybe think about a unit of Deliverers; a simple tactic with Kreoss and the Delverers is simply pop feat knock everything down and you almost can't miss even with Inaccurate.

[ProAndrew]

So shall I swap grand expemplar for high exemplar? Most of his army has stealth.

[Warsmith_Kaile]

Not sure of some of the point costs so the list may be off.
Kreoss1 *5
Repenter 4
Repenter 4
Revenger 6
Base Choir 2
Base Exemplar Errants 5
-Officer and Standard 2?
Knights Exemplar 5
Vassal of Menoth 2?


Fire Doesn't care if the model can "see" the target. Spray attacks are not affected by Stealth and you can still target and hit everything at which you are shooting. The Vassal will allow you to run one of said flame throwers then still get the attack off and burn the Banes to the ground, have it affected by the Choir and it's damned impossible to miss. Get his forces in as close as you can then use your feat to flatten his forces. Once you do that take to the sword what doesn't burn.

[the12thronin]

If you are going with pKreoss, you're better off with Redeemers. 16", RoF 3, 3" AoE (plus extra from the vassal). It will auto scatter since it misses but deviations will still kill things. Repenters need to get too close and anything they don't kill will kill them next turn. You also have no heavy and nothing that can kill the Nightmare or be more than a speed bump to it.

Against that list, you'd probably be better off with epic Feora or the Harbinger as your caster all around. Harbinger denies them their movement and eFeora make a whole mess of high def/low arm infantry.

[ProAndrew]

What about this list with pKreoss

High Exemplar Kreoss +5 warjack points
Vanquisher 8 points
Vassal 2 points
Repenter 4 points
4 Choir of Menoth 2 points
6 Daughters 5 points
6 Exemplar Errants 5 points + Officer and Standard 2 points
The Covenant of Menoth 2 points

is this going to work?

[lowry]

dont knock the cinerators, people always underestimate them but they are actually quite good. you could always swap out the covenant for kell bailoch ( a 14" range on his magical gun with 2 shots if he doesnt move). a nice tactic i run is 3 cinerators with nicia moving behind them. the cinerators act as a shield for her (becoming spd 6 if damaged) then when nicia is in charge range she jumps forward usually kills 2, jumps back behind the cinderators then they charge and when they box a model they set fire to enemy models within 1". personnally i usually field a vanquisher + vassal @ 25 pts. choirs are always a good choice when u have jacks. eiryss is always a good choice against jacks/casters (just watch their face when u take away their focus with disruption bolt), also the kell + eiryss combo can take 5 boxes of a column of your choosing on a jack.

[lowry]

perhaps something like this...

Protectorate of Menoth
25+5 points, 17 models

High Exemplar Kreoss +5 points
* Repenter 4 points
* Vanquisher 8 points

4 Choir of Menoth 2 points
Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios 3 points
3 Exemplar Cinerators 5 points
Kell Bailoch 2 points
Nicia, Tear of Vengeance 3 points
Vassal of Menoth 2 points
3 Wracks 1 point

[paddyalexander]

Kell Bailoch does not ignore stealth.

What you have here is a slow Menoth army that is purely melee going against an army that can shut you down for a turn.

Menoth has the tools available to counter this list. When building a list in Warmachine or Hoardes you need to think what elements you need to counter. Stealth, Incorporeal, High Armour, High Defence, High Speed, Debuff Spells and Buff Spells.

In this case your problem is a Debuff Feat which can't be directly countered but can be managed. Firstly Kreoss' Purification spell removes Deneghras debuff spells and so limits how effective her army can be. You need to force your enemy to come to you by including ranged elements and/or fast units. Menoth has access to some great ranged Warjacks and units with AoE or spray attacks (which ignore stealth), most of which set stuff on fire if it fails to kill them them. This will force your opponent to have to play aggressively instead of defensively. Having a second wave of fast models like Calvery or Daughters will help counter this. Holding them back, prefferably out of range of Deneghras feat and moving them forward to counter attack will drasticly reduce the effectiveness of her feat.

I went a bit ramble-y there. Hope any of this helps.

[ProAndrew]

Menoth has access to some great ranged Warjacks and units with AoE or spray attacks (which ignore stealth), most of which set stuff on fire if it fails to kill them them. This will force your opponent to have to play aggressively instead of defensively. Having a second wave of fast models like Calvery or Daughters will help counter this.

Well I'm using daughters who are quite fast, vanquisher and errants for range, repenter for spray attacks.
What would you change in my list? Shall I add another squad of daughters?

[lowry]

try an get eiryss in there for her death bolt/disruption bolt

[ProAndrew]

try an get eiryss in there for her death bolt/disruption bolt

But she doesn't ignore stealth. That's the problem.

[paddyalexander]

That second list has some nice options in it and should work nicely. So it becomes a question of how you play this list instead of just what you bring to the table. How are you deploying and in what formation are moving your units/models up the table? How does your opponent usualy deploy his models/units? Where is Defenders Ward being placed?

Don't get too hung up on stealth. Two shots a turn from the Vanquisher should net you plenty of kills on his units. Bane Thralls might hit hard but can't take a counter punch without their UA. Satyxis have armour of tong.

Don't be afraid to use the Repenter to go solo or warcaster hunting. Without arc-nodes Denny is going to have to be more forward than she should be played. A boosted & chiored shot has a very good chance of killing her with setting her on fire as a bonus if she survives.

[ProAndrew]

He spreads his army horizontally. With new I list I'll probably place vanquisher, repenter, errants at the front and daughters at the back for counter attack. vassal will stay close to vanquisher. choir, covenat and kreoss in the middle of the army. We are playing killbox.