Tactics Against Necrons with CSM

[Omegon]

I'm currently struggling against Necrons in our local game with my chaos space marines. Some of this has been luck, but in other cases I'm being a little outclassed and I'm looking for help

My opponents tend to go for 1 big unit of Necron warriors (20ish) with a lord and res orb, 6 wraiths (which my 8 zercs with champ with powerfist and sorcerer could beat in 8 rounds of combat, ok he did make every armour save except 1....) doom arc 2 units of heavy destroyers and the like. the other opponent tends to go for scarabs, Annihilation Barges and the like with smaller units of necrons warriors. Both of course take immortals.

my own armour tends to have plague Marines in 6 man squads, 1 unit of zerks, a sorcerer with lash (though I'm going to change this to a D. Prince), some oblits, a vindicator and a Defiler.

big problems I have are in kill points, my army tends to have around 12 kills points total whereas my opponents have around 8. I suffer easy kill point losses due to Rhino's being popped and cannot make the points back. My current thoughts are that I need to assault them more. Cron's seem to be an attrition shooty army with limited (but good) assault capability versus meq armies.

[Kevlar]

I don't have too many problems with necrons. I run dual lash princes, two units of berzerkers with power fist champs, two units of melta plague marines, some obliterators, some terminators, and a defiler. Sometimes a dread.

I just lash his units I want to shoot, like wraiths, into a big clump and dump high str weapons on them. He is going to make 2/3 of his saves on average, but if you hit him with str 8+ he only has 6 wounds. So you need to put 18 wounds on the unit to destroy it, or 10-12 to make it non-effective. Every shot from the battle cannon is 5-6 ID wounds. So really you only need to hit the wraiths a couple of times with the defiler and they are toast.

For assault, lash his warriors into a conga line and stick his lords way in the back so they get no attacks and no MSS. Unit champs need to me at least 8" away from the battle line so they get no supporting attacks. Independent chars only need to be 6" away. Your berzerkers will easily crush a unit of warriors/immortals in assault, usually winning by 8+ making it impossible to pass his leadership test. If there is a lash prince in combat he has almost no chance of escaping a sweeping advance.

Assault his vehicles with a prince, str 9 berzerker champ, walker, or just shoot them with lascannons from the obliterators. They don't last long versus any of that.

Plague marines make great units for tying up necron troops, and especially scarabs who just can not put wounds on them.

If its a night fight scenario just rush everything forward, shoot your rhinos first to get searchlights on stuff to make it easier for your obliterators and other units to hit.

Necrons are slow and pretty weak in assault, one of the better matchups for Chaos Space Marines. They can't outrun you, can't outrange you, and can't beat you in melee. Their shooting is mostly high str, but ap-. They can kill rhinos pretty easily, but struggle to kill your units. Not much is str 8 either so plague marines get armor and FNP saves against most of their stuff. Just keep your berzerkers safe until they can assault. If your berzerker rhino gets popped, unload your plagues and let them hop in that rhino.

[rocdocta]

i play both CSM and necrons. I find the old "shoot the assault and assult the shoot" works well.

Wraiths can be nasty in combat. so if you apply as much bolter fire on them as possible they will be manageable. why bolter fire? they have a 3+ invul. this can shrug off the S8+ weapons if luck goes their way. so really if you make them into assault marines they will fall over fast. 9 rapid fire = 18 shots = 12 hits = 6 wounds = 4 saves. not the best but it will whittle them down so that when they do engage in combat they wont last as long.

lash the warriors together and oblit them to death. then charge the survivors. i never use large warrior blocks as its a quick way to lose a massive chunk of points and is inflexible when compared to 2 smaller units. i would expect 8 zerks to walk through twice as much warriors even with a Olord/lord with them. make sure the Pfist/power weapons arent in base with any MSS lords. even if a vanilla zerk fails MSS its only on average 2 hit which may be 1 wound which has a 2/3 chance of being saved.

be wary of WW lists that force dangerous terrain tests which will bypass the Plague Marine saves ie T5, 3+ save, FNP.

[Infidel]

Two words - Lash Oblits.

Without psychic protection, lashing things into a clump and dumping plasmacannons on it is as effective as ever. The problem lies in getting in range to use the Lash and also de-meching whatever it is that you want to lash. Clever Necron opponents will use Wraiths and vehicles to 'zone' the Lash away.

You can deep-strike the oblits to hit a flank and use their multi-melta to toast a vehicle, since you'll most likely be fighting under NF and let's face it, no one uses lascannons.

[Bonzai]

I also play both Necrons and Chaos. I have only had one tough match against chaos.... where I took an Abbaddon to the face. It wasn't pretty. Other than "shoot him alot!", there really isn't an answer for old uncle Abbey in the Necron codex. Other than that, other's have given some pretty good advice.

[Infidel]

I don't know...Abaddon is quite unwieldy. Shut down his ride and then he's gonna have to leg it for the rest of the game. If you are comitted to killing him, MSS is your best answer. Doesn't matter what he rolls as bonus attack, he won't be swining at nobody except d3 times at himself/his unit.

[madden]

Mss plus teseract in a large warrior unit will kill him csm's are tricky in my area lots of contempters in lucius pattern pods = first turn assualt just to tie up units then they move everything up and plas/melta/rapid fire most else(it dosen't always work and he gets eaten or flayed).

[Kevlar]

I also play both Necrons and Chaos. I have only had one tough match against chaos.... where I took an Abbaddon to the face. It wasn't pretty. Other than "shoot him alot!", there really isn't an answer for old uncle Abbey in the Necron codex. Other than that, other's have given some pretty good advice.

Abaddon is strong, but doesn't give your army the kind of force multiplier you get from a lash prince. He is less mobile and takes away that extra 2d6 of creativeness, while costing a boatload more points.

[rocdocta]

plus a lash can often win the game by pulling a unit off the objective or push an assault unit away from you or a shooty unit within your assault range. They are gold. just need to be protected.

[Buddha777]

I play both armies and I agree that lash works well against non-mech necrons, which is fairly common in my gaming area (including myself). Necrons also just melt in CC due to their low I so berserkers lead by kharn, for example, will tear through anything in the necron army. When it comes to characters though, beware of MSS, since it can turn the mightiest chaos champion into an unwitting servant for a turn.

On the whole, however, mech chaos shouldn't have too much of a problem dealing with necrons since their skills are resilience and CC prowess which are both anathema to the necron fighting style.

[Deadite]

Heh, I take dual Lash princes, zerkers, plagues and oblits against a friends MSU Necron list with dual solar pulses, 3 of those gunboats things and destroyers. I can't seem to get close enough to make much of a dent, post Lash nerf.
He prioritizes well, eliminates the big stuff (DP's), nerfs my shooting for two turns and just sits at the back of the board plinking away. Not much I can do after that, he just spreads out, feeds me a squad or two of disposable crons and goes about his merry way cleaning up what's left. I've given him a fight by deepstriking oblits and "big" stuff to spare them the necron shooting for a few turns, but coming on piecemeal still sucks. It takes quite a bit to actually get to grips with him.
So, either the Necron player is really good, or the CSM player is not.

[stereynolds]

Worth trying marine horde of 20 dudes with an icon of Nurgle (does it still increase their T?).

[Kevlar]

Worth trying marine horde of 20 dudes with an icon of Nurgle (does it still increase their T?).

Yeah, but doesn't allow them feel no pain, or 8 melta guns like you can do with real plague marines.

As to the above chaos list getting hammered, you are doing something wrong. Is everything mechanized? Is everything advancing behind the rhino wall? Deepstriking obliterators is a bad idea, you want them shooting every turn. Necrons don't have much that can deal with a 2+ save so its not a problem trying to hug cover. I advance mine behind a terminator screen to stop melee units tying them up.

Move the rhinos 12 forward, pop smoke. March everything else up behind the rhinos giving the princes cover. Stay out of range of heavy dakka units, like immortals or phaeron warriors. 2nd turn you can probably disembark the berzerkers, use lash to get something in their assault range, send their rhinos off to searchlight something. Plague marines should be in melta range, or move their rhinos 12" and disembark if you have to and pop some vehicles. Take out the barges/monolith. Defiler and oblits should be able to light up anything the searchlights hit without any problem. Terminators can add some extra fire with reapers on anything juicy.

[Deadite]

As to the above chaos list getting hammered, you are doing something wrong. Is everything mechanized? Is everything advancing behind the rhino wall? Deepstriking obliterators is a bad idea, you want them shooting every turn. Necrons don't have much that can deal with a 2+ save so its not a problem trying to hug cover. I advance mine behind a terminator screen to stop melee units tying them up.

Move the rhinos 12 forward, pop smoke. March everything else up behind the rhinos giving the princes cover. Stay out of range of heavy dakka units, like immortals or phaeron warriors. 2nd turn you can probably disembark the berzerkers, use lash to get something in their assault range, send their rhinos off to searchlight something. Plague marines should be in melta range, or move their rhinos 12" and disembark if you have to and pop some vehicles. Take out the barges/monolith. Defiler and oblits should be able to light up anything the searchlights hit without any problem. Terminators can add some extra fire with reapers on anything juicy.

Yes, marines are in mobile boxes (meched). "Rhino wall" is not very effective with only 4 rhinos. Dealing with solar pulses for 2 turns is not fun. I don't often get first turn. In that first turn the Necron player's 6-9 Lance weapons (on crypteks... I think) mince whatever armor is within 36". Not to mention the dozens of shots and "bounce" shots from the gunboats and the few side shots from destroyers just for fun. I'm not talking about those big transport looking things with templates, I'm talking about the smaller vehicles that could let a Lord ride or use a big set of guns (no idea what they're called).

Let's paint the scenario here if I don't deepstrike anything;
Necron MSU, 2 lords with solar pulses, one with Mind shackle, 6 Immortal units, some with Tesla coils, some without, each with a Cryptek with some sort of lance weapon. 3 of those "flying" things that have 7+ shots each and those shots could "bounce" from one unit to the next, filling the rest with destroyers/heavy destroyers up to 1850.
My chaos is just 4 units of various csm, plagues, zerkers in rhinos, 6 obliterators and 2 lash princes.
Necron player spreads everything out near the back of his deployment, making me come get him. First turn, he shoots what he can and drops a solar pulse. Chaos turn, has to run up and pop smoke. Search lights are hit and miss, Lash results in nothing (night fighting and new Lash nerf often foils my plans), Obliterators can't see anything in general and are slow to manouver (never work for me). 1st Chaos turn essentially wasted.
Necrons retaliate with everything in a pincer-like move (because my army is much smaller spatially than his), generally knocking around Rhinos to "can't move" status, picking off obliterators and putting wounds on DP's. Then drops the next solar pulse.
2nd Chaos turn, still generally can't see squat due to pulse, still too short to assault. I might get lucky and manage to whittle down a squad or two or put a "can't shoot" result on one of his gunboats.
After the third necron turn Chaos will have no heavy shooting and maybe a single lash user left "alive", any troops close to assualt will be badly damaged and probably below half strength. Necron player anticipates where combats will be and moves accordingly to feed chaos a squad and back off to shoot some more.
Chaos does what it can with what it has left. Sometimes getting close to a victory, but often coming up just short.
I have only won against this list once, and he purposely stacked the game in my favor (he was testing out how he would deal with a "worst case" scenario).

So, for 3 turns, even though I want them shooting every turn, the Obliterators will end up doing little, if anything... why not deepstrike them and get them in close with plasma/flamers/power fists? Essentially nerfing the solar pulses he paid for. That strategy almost proved victorious, but poor rolling on my part led to the loss. The necron player felt that was a very smart and shrewd move that left him scrambling and challenged him.

[Kevlar]

Sorry but your scenarios don't sound right. Does the necron player have 500+ more points than you? Annihilation barges that get 7+ shots? You know they are not fast vehicles, if he moves 6" he gets one gun. Most of his weapons are 24" range. So either your stuff is in range to pretty much guarantee searchlights, or he is out of range. I don't understand how you can say searchlights are "hit or miss"? You should have 6+ searchlights and most (all)of them should be in range turn 2. What scenario are you playing? Most of them you start 24" apart. So move up 6" and you are in 18" range, easy to get off a searchlight. Your obliterators should be shooting every turn. You should be in assault turn 2. Lash "nerf" wasn't really bad at all, I don't see what is so bad with hitting on a 2+. It is still almost a gimmie.

[Deadite]

Sorry but your scenarios don't sound right. Does the necron player have 500+ more points than you? Annihilation barges that get 7+ shots? You know they are not fast vehicles, if he moves 6" he gets one gun. Most of his weapons are 24" range. So either your stuff is in range to pretty much guarantee searchlights, or he is out of range. I don't understand how you can say searchlights are "hit or miss"? You should have 6+ searchlights and most (all)of them should be in range turn 2. What scenario are you playing? Most of them you start 24" apart. So move up 6" and you are in 18" range, easy to get off a searchlight. Your obliterators should be shooting every turn. You should be in assault turn 2. Lash "nerf" wasn't really bad at all, I don't see what is so bad with hitting on a 2+. It is still almost a gimmie.

No, he does not have more points than I do. Remember, each unit is small 5 man immortal units, several have an attached cryptek with some sort of lance weapon. He gets a lot of guns.
Annihilation barges have Tesla weapons and he rolls a LOT of 6's, then there's the 'arc' bonus. I have 4 searchlights (4 relatively easily destroyed spotlights), so I can only spot up to 4 targets for the 2-5 chaos units (a grand total of 8 shots, 2 of which are potential lashes) that would have range to "shoot" anything on that first turn. If my positioning is off, I'm not going to be lashing or hitting anything significant... hence "hit or miss" on anything spotted with Searchlights (though, re-reading that, I admit I could have been more clear).
Again, he starts at the BACK of his deployment, so after that first turn, if I only move 6", I'm still 25+" away when I finish my turn. He moves up a couple inches and I'm now watching as 9+ lance/heavy weapons tear my mobility and heavy weapons to shreds (I think he mentioned he had 17? weapons at str 6 or better).
What "should" happen isn't always what will happen.
Since I can only "see" 4 units or less out of his dozen or so units, it doesn't make any sense to me to start my heavy hitters on the board where he can limit what I see with those solar pulses for 2 turns (3 if already in Night fight). If I deepstrike, I have to make him choose when to use the pulses. If I'm already in his face via deepstriking, there's little point using the pulses. Obliterators do have power fists, might as well use them since they won't win the battle of shooting attrition.
The Lash nerf has affected my good:bad luck ratio. Yes, the math supports that it's not "that bad", but I miss the critical rolls more than I'd like. If I'm not failing the psychic test, I'm failing to hit with a 1, and if I DO manage to get it going, my lash distance rolls have been abysmal. The nerf has added another level of failure to my gameplay, where as before I could generally guarantee at least 1 lash per round... now I gnash my teeth and pray to the gods every time I roll.
As for the scenarios we're playing, they're from a local tournament, based largely on the NOVA tournament scenarios.

I'll see if I can't get a copy of his list.


So, not to completely hijack the OP's thread, but I'm also having issues vs Necrons with CSM.

[Shiodome]

annihilation barge IS fast. they're 4 shot twinlinked, and every 6 rolled is an additional 2 hits, 6-8 hits is fairly average. and the necrons you think will be 19" away turn 2 didn't actually set up as far forward as possible for some reason. :P

[Kevlar]

annihilation barge IS fast. they're 4 shot twinlinked, and every 6 rolled is an additional 2 hits, 6-8 hits is fairly average. and the necrons you think will be 19" away turn 2 didn't actually set up as far forward as possible for some reason. :P

You must have a different version of the 40k 5th edition Necrons than the one I have read. I don't see "fast" anywhere in the description under "Annihilation Barge". So it gets one shot at combat speed with its tesla destructor. Seems to average about 3 hits, 1-2 wounds every time I see it shoot, and those are usually saved since it isn't AP3. My princes pretty much shrug it off, then murder it with their 6+2d6 penetration.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

...6-8 hits is fairly average.

Seems to average about 3 hits...

It amuses me that the actual average is approximately the average of each of your averages.

[Kevlar]

It amuses me that the actual average is approximately the average of each of your averages.

So what is it, 3.5 + .75 for the tesla effect? Something like that. 4.25, wounds on 2 so 3.5 wounds. 1.2 wounds after a 3+ save. Not a very scary weapon. Maybe its good for stunning rhinos, but then you could always invest in DP or EA and pretty much ignore necron guns. Oh and always buy a pintle mounted weapon so you get extra weapon destroyeds before being immobilized.