New Mymeara FW book changes Eldar fluff?

[Vandur Last]

I've noticed a few things that seem either wrong or to be changes to Eldar themes/background.

I'd like to mention a few of them now and hear what people think. Are they really new or did I just miss them previously, is the book wrong or are these intended as changes?

1) holofields are described correctly in the unit entries, but in the fluff section they are made to sound different. It talks if them taking hits and "giving out" as if they are force shields from Star Trek. I'm pretty sure that holofields have always represented disruption and misdirection rather than an actual barrier that blocks or diverts attacks.

More to come, gotta stop now as I'm at work

[Lord Damocles]

Could it literally be that the field generator is hit and konks out?

Quotes to show the context, and/or page numbers would help.

[Apologist]

Doubtless eldar vehicles have lots of super-high tech gadgetry to defend themselves physically. I'd suggest that the new background is a nod to the old conversion field wargear from Rogue Trader and 40k 2nd ed., and also a nice update to holofields; both disruptive and offering practical defence, like reactive armour. A change? Perhaps – but if it's a good, well-thought-out one, that suits me

[Jericho]

Interesting, if that's the case. Either way, you could certainly have Holofields fail as the titan takes damage. IIRC you can have your holofields go out in BFG as a critical hit result.

<edit> Wave Serpents and War Walkers have energy shields, do they not? A hybrid technology with both energy barriers and visual disruption is certainly as believable as either separate system. </edit>

[carlisimo]

I might be looking at a different paragraph than you, but I see the holofields going down briefly when the titan's left shoulder is it. If the holofield were working like a void shield, the hits would've hit the shield, not the shoulder. So I'd say the holofield generator was damaged or at least jarred. That's consistent with existing fluff.

[Hendarion]

<edit> (...) War Walkers have energy shields, do they not? (...)

In fluff they at least had them. I'm not sure they still do. At least nothing of them is reflected anymore in the game mechanics.

[Jonke]

In fluff they at least had them. I'm not sure they still do. At least nothing of them is reflected anymore in the game mechanics.

Depends how you look at it, they are not open topped despite the pilot being fairly exposed.

[Vandur Last]

Okay thanks for the discussion guys. Looking back at it now i realise i had made a mistake by confusing the description of an Eldar Starship shield with that of a Titan. Im not a BFG player but i guess Eldar have actual force-field devices on those vessels.

Anyway the second thing that i noticed was the the Eldar Craftworlds and Warmachines were being described in a very Imperial themed way. Specifically i mean that they were "ancient devices the secrets of whose construction was lost" and that only some Craftworlds know how to build these. Its all very remiscent of how only certain Imperial Forge worlds can build certain tanks etc. and how Marine terminator Armour is irreplacable. i dont remember having read of this problem for the Eldar before.

With the Wraithguard in particular i dislike it because it creates an uneccecary second "fluff" complication. Originally it was bad enough that they even had to use Wraith constructs as it is considered disrespectful to the dead, which in addition to the limited number of eligible deceased souls available to pilot the Wraithguard/lords, limited the Eldars ability to field them in large numbers. Now added onto that we have the idea that the Eldar dont even have the ability to replace the damaged constructs?
It seems as if in this regard (Wraith constructs being only an example of this) the Eldar in this book are being portrayed as having not only thier own traditional weaknesses and limitations, but those of the Imperium as well.
I used to love the idea that the "important" attrition figures for the Eldar and Imperium were reversed. For example the Imperium could say " Good, we lost 100,000 men today but at least we didnt damage any of our irreplacable Super-Heavies or Titans so in the long run were better off, since the men can eventually be replaced" whereas the Eldar might say " We lost alot of Super-Heavies and a Titan today but we saved 100,000 Eldar lives so in the long run were better off since those warmachines can be replaced but our population cant be.".

[Novafix]

In fluff they at least had them. I'm not sure they still do. At least nothing of them is reflected anymore in the game mechanics.

They're not open topped - that's the shield at work IIRC

[Hendarion]

Yea... right...

[Novafix]

Yea... right...

From the War Walker entry in the fluff bit of the Eldar Codex p44

"...However, the pilot of a War Walker is not without protection, for the vehicle is equipped with an array of force fields that blur and distort its outline, making it at least as safe as a fully enclosed vehicle..."

[Solonor]

Okay thanks for the discussion guys. Looking back at it now i realise i had made a mistake by confusing the description of an Eldar Starship shield with that of a Titan. Im not a BFG player but i guess Eldar have actual force-field devices on those vessels.

Anyway the second thing that i noticed was the the Eldar Craftworlds and Warmachines were being described in a very Imperial themed way. Specifically i mean that they were "ancient devices the secrets of whose construction was lost" and that only some Craftworlds know how to build these. Its all very remiscent of how only certain Imperial Forge worlds can build certain tanks etc. and how Marine terminator Armour is irreplacable. i dont remember having read of this problem for the Eldar before.

With the Wraithguard in particular i dislike it because it creates an uneccecary second "fluff" complication. Originally it was bad enough that they even had to use Wraith constructs as it is considered disrespectful to the dead, which in addition to the limited number of eligible deceased souls available to pilot the Wraithguard/lords, limited the Eldars ability to field them in large numbers. Now added onto that we have the idea that the Eldar dont even have the ability to replace the damaged constructs?
It seems as if in this regard (Wraith constructs being only an example of this) the Eldar in this book are being portrayed as having not only thier own traditional weaknesses and limitations, but those of the Imperium as well.
I used to love the idea that the "important" attrition figures for the Eldar and Imperium were reversed. For example the Imperium could say " Good, we lost 100,000 men today but at least we didnt damage any of our irreplacable Super-Heavies or Titans so in the long run were better off, since the men can eventually be replaced" whereas the Eldar might say " We lost alot of Super-Heavies and a Titan today but we saved 100,000 Eldar lives so in the long run were better off since those warmachines can be replaced but our population cant be.".

Although my fluff knowledge is not that great, i think the Lost Tech theme is also an Eldar thing, you have many examples, like the Exarch weapons that are supposed to be ancient artifacts, ancient Eldar devices from before the fall that are to dangerous and powerfull to be used outside the most troublesome times etc.

[AndrewGPaul]

The Eldar have always been the remnants of a larger civilisation. It might be a new thing to mention it, but I don't see it as particularly jarring that certain technologies are either lost completely or not available to certain craftworlds.

To answer your question in a more general sense, yes Forge World change things. Imperial Titans have more crew than they used to, Eldar ones apparently have fewer. Mark 7 Marine armour used to be the best, now it's mark 4. Such is the way of things, I suppose. Such revisionism is nothing new, as the examples of Leman Russ, the Ultramarines and Raven Guard will show (not to mention the entire Horus Heresy).

Regarding holo-fields, the answer has been addressed - a hit to the Titan's structure causesthe field emitter to malfunction briefly - and that's basically a reflection of game mechanics in 2nd edition Epic. Back then, shots were aimed at particular points on the titan. You could either go for centre of mass to maximise your chances of hitting, but then have to punch through the heaviest armour, or you could aim for an extremity - an arm, leg, etc. Those were usually less well-armed and could cause more immediate critical hits. Eldar titans mount the holofield generators in the relatively under-armoured wing structures. They were difficult to hit but if you did, you had a good chance of shooting off the holofield emitters, makng the titan a sitting duck.

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

Okay thanks for the discussion guys. Looking back at it now i realise i had made a mistake by confusing the description of an Eldar Starship shield with that of a Titan. Im not a BFG player but i guess Eldar have actual force-field devices on those vessels.

If I remember correctly even their Starships depend on misdirection. So they are hard to hit but if you do hit they suffer a lot of damage.

Anyway the second thing that i noticed was the the Eldar Craftworlds and Warmachines were being described in a very Imperial themed way. Specifically i mean that they were "ancient devices the secrets of whose construction was lost" and that only some Craftworlds know how to build these. Its all very remiscent of how only certain Imperial Forge worlds can build certain tanks etc. and how Marine terminator Armour is irreplacable. i dont remember having read of this problem for the Eldar before.

#sigh# That is one of my least favourite aspects of 40k, it's just silly. It's fine to have a few mythical artefacts around, like some of the Phoenix Lords weaponry or super weapons like the Blackstone Fortresses/Talisman of Vaul, but lets keep it the rare exception. Having standard equipment, wargear and vehicles be rare, hard to produce ancient machines are just dumb and further breaks suspension of disbelief. It also means that the race ends up looking incompetent more than anything else. And if there is one thing Eldars shouldn't look like it's incompetent.

But sadly it's all part of the "rule of cool" for 40k. Ancient, rare wargear that no one can build is apparently much cooler than being the race actually being competent...

[NashTrickster]

I don't have that book yet, but from what I could see so far (the Phantom Titan's paint job and single pilot) the part of Eldar fluff which is most likely to have been heavily modified by FW is the part about the Fir Caurifel (the "Titanic Clans")...

Fir Caurifel are supposed to be independant, insular entities, big Craftworld having several Firs... So Eldar Titans painted in the color of the Craftworld instead of the Clan's are as bad fluff-wise, IMHO, as Imperial Titans painted in the colors of a Space Marine Chapter...

And the change from three pilots controlling the Titan in unison through the Carrecenad (a huge Spirit-Stone containing the spirits of the former pilots) to a single pilot is, still IMHO, a big loss...

But I guess FW thought it was too "complex".

Edit: This is my post #404... Will it show as an error?

[Idaan]

Anyway the second thing that i noticed was the the Eldar Craftworlds and Warmachines were being described in a very Imperial themed way. Specifically i mean that they were "ancient devices the secrets of whose construction was lost" and that only some Craftworlds know how to build these. Its all very remiscent of how only certain Imperial Forge worlds can build certain tanks etc. and how Marine terminator Armour is irreplacable. i dont remember having read of this problem for the Eldar before.

With the Wraithguard in particular i dislike it because it creates an uneccecary second "fluff" complication. Originally it was bad enough that they even had to use Wraith constructs as it is considered disrespectful to the dead, which in addition to the limited number of eligible deceased souls available to pilot the Wraithguard/lords, limited the Eldars ability to field them in large numbers. Now added onto that we have the idea that the Eldar dont even have the ability to replace the damaged constructs?
It seems as if in this regard (Wraith constructs being only an example of this) the Eldar in this book are being portrayed as having not only thier own traditional weaknesses and limitations, but those of the Imperium as well.
I used to love the idea that the "important" attrition figures for the Eldar and Imperium were reversed. For example the Imperium could say " Good, we lost 100,000 men today but at least we didnt damage any of our irreplacable Super-Heavies or Titans so in the long run were better off, since the men can eventually be replaced" whereas the Eldar might say " We lost alot of Super-Heavies and a Titan today but we saved 100,000 Eldar lives so in the long run were better off since those warmachines can be replaced but our population cant be.".

Huh? Where does it say that in the Mymeara book? Considering that the Wraith-constructs are an explicit example of a field where Eldar still innovate, it makes little sense for them to be "lost tech".

But yes, I was a bit disappointed about the IA. It doesn't really add any detail to the Eldar way of the war, doesn't really give the Corsairs a distinct personality, but instead keeps things pretty vague and non-descriptive, as GW publications are wont to do. I expected more of Forge World.

[Lord Squidar]

I don't think autarch and standard trooper weapons are irreplacable. Same with exarch weapons. Maybe the famed Sword of a Thousand Tears, the specific biting blade that Exarch Bob has used for the last 10 000 years is irreplacable, but biting blades in general, should be made as per normal, and so on and so forth. Its not like the exarch weapons are that rare or ancient since they are from after the fall and assaumingly each craftworld has many shrines and exarchs.

. Pheonix Lord weapons are a different story, but they and their equipment are immortal, so it doesn't matter if they can be destroyed or replaced etc. Same with specific weapons on special characters, those are from before the fall and so would be insanely rare and irreplacable artifacts.

I also think that for the eldar, making a new titan would be easy. You just have to sing it into existence like all the other ships and weapons. However, the giant seer stone that powers it is irreplacable, so that would make it a loss comparable with an Imperial Titan.

[carlisimo]

The book at least kept it vague; they kept open the possibility of the Eldar still being able to build a lot of those constructs. But I know what you mean. We don't need that theme to be everywhere.

In BFG, Eldar ships just have holofields, no energy shields. It's a bit silly, but they're more likely to take damage going through an asteroid belt than human or ork ships.

[Iron_Lord]

In Rogue Trader, asteroids ignore shields. However they're reduced in damage compared to Battlefleet Gothic- an escort or transport has a good chance of surviving some hits.

[Jericho]

To answer your question in a more general sense, yes Forge World change things. Imperial Titans have more crew than they used to, Eldar ones apparently have fewer. Mark 7 Marine armour used to be the best, now it's mark 4. Such is the way of things, I suppose. Such revisionism is nothing new, as the examples of Leman Russ, the Ultramarines and Raven Guard will show (not to mention the entire Horus Heresy).

According to Deliverance Lost, MkVI "Corvus" armor is supposed to be the best, as it had better sensors and stealth capabilities than the MkIV "Maximus" plate, which is simply referred to as the most advanced armor prior to outbreak of the Heresy. Hell, even the description of Space Marines being better (or at least better equipped) than Thunder Warriors is thrown into doubt by the HH series. I don't want to say much more, except "Go read Outcast Dead if you haven't already done so."

Personally I take every comparative in the HH series with a massive helping of salt. The legions trying to compare each other's strengths and weaknesses, discussions about which primarch would win in a fight, etc. are all incredibly biased. The same would naturally apply to armor and equipment, as each variant would be better at different roles and each Legion values certain roles more highly than others. Zip forward 10k years and this ties into the 40k fluff as well, as different legions remember parts of their history very differently. I don't consider this as being inconsistent or authors making a mistake... I think it's more interesting to keep these different versions to show that everybody has a very different perspective on things in the 40k universe.

As for crew sizes in FW models, I think it all comes down to how much room they have for internal details. They like doing the internal cockpit details, but obviously they can only make them so big!