New Mymeara FW book changes Eldar fluff?

[eldargal]

I'm participating, you are continuing to ignore the realities of what FW were going to give us. Eldar were the bad guys, we are lucky they came out looking good. You are cranky that they don't look as good as you would like.

Tht is wrong. The 6th Cadian Armoured and unknown numbers of Arvus fighters were already stationed on the planet. The remainder arrived a month after the sensoe network was brought down. They also had unknown numbers of Planetary Defense Forces. Now I can't find any spefici mention of the numbers of guardsmen on a planet, but according to the IG codex a regiment can range from fifteen hundred to one hundred and twenty thousand men. So I don't consider having a lot of fighter craft and up to one hundred thousand men and tanks sitting in between Irillyth and the webway portals to to be 'non threatening'. You may also like to re-reead the description of the mining facility that linked to the caverns that Irillyth was in. They are fortified with heavy weapons, a militia and nine hundred workers. The interior had blast doors able to withstand reactor detonations and other defenses.

So let me spell it out:

You want a small team of Eldar to exfiltrate from one of the polar webway portals, travel undetected thousands of miles into the heart of IoM operations on the planet, infiltrate a fortified mine filled with humans and guarded by a well armed militia. They then have to locate the chamber containing the Phoenix Lord and Shadow Spectres, revive them and then escape said Imperium facility. They then have to travel thousands of miles back accross tundra and back through the webway portal. One sighting, one alarm sounded and the planets PDF, air force and an unknown number of the 6th Cadian Armoured regiments are between them and their objective or their exit.

Yeah, totally the risk-free work of hours.

The fact that the Eldar were willing to sacririce so many valuable Eldar lives in prolonged combat to ensure the retrieval of a Phoenix Lord should tell you how important the objective was, not that the Eldar are idiots.

[Shamana]

So let me spell it out:

You want a small team of Eldar to exfiltrate from one of the polar webway portals, travel undetected thousands of miles into the heart of IoM operations on the planet, infiltrate a fortified mine filled with humans and guarded by a well armed militia. They then have to locate the chamber containing the Phoenix Lord and Shadow Spectres, revive them and then escape said Imperium facility. They then have to travel thousands of miles back accross tundra and back through the webway portal. One sighting, one alarm sounded and the planets PDF, air force and an unknown number of the 6th Cadian Armoured regiments are between them and their objective or their exit.

Yeah, totally the risk-free work of hours.

Er, no, I'm afraid that's not what most people said. I, personally, had two big issues, for which there was no explanation in the book:

a) Why should the eldar attack just when the planet was about as well-defended as it could be? Why not before the Cadians came - or after they left? They choose about the worst possible time. Did they botch the divination or knew something else? The book doesn't say.

b) Why didn't they press their advantage for all it was worth in the first few weeks, before Odon took command and could take control over the whole system?

Ok, it probably wouldn't have been much of a fight, but there should at least have been an obvious reason. Remember, the raids were going on for "weeks," then it was at least a week before the Inquisitor brought the Vaustians to heel. In fact, at first the Eastern continent was much less defended, at some point Odon pretty much abandoned the other two to protect it. It was a hard fight for the Imperium even with all the system's resources - had the Eldar struck in force before they could be mobilized it wouldn't have even been close. The Imperium was also severely outnumbered in space and in the air - p.17 talks about Belsavis III having about a squadron of marauders and about as many thunderbolts; p.25 (the space battle) describes their space fighters as being "pitifully few" in comparison to the corsair fleet. The eldar had a serious numerical advantage there. So they had the initiative, surprise and speed on their side, they could count on air cover, and significant troops - until reinforcements could arrive, they had all the trumps.

So, the question is, why didn't they go all out and blitz the eastern continent in the weeks before its defenses could be prepared? If they knew where the sensors were, they probably knew where the bases and communication centers were. Before the other two continents could be emptied (and all equipment scavenged in preparation) they could have wrought havoc from the air or space. They could have used their aircraft to interfere with troops being flown in to fort Riyra or even used their spacecrafts to attack it from orbit (the only orbital bombardment mentioned was the one on the Phantom titan). And while the cavern was defended well (against a strike team) when the Inquisitor was there, its defenses could have hardly stopped a serious military force - and then the farseer and his retinue could have resurrected the phoenix lord at their leisure. The eldar wasted too much time, which allowed Odon to take charge, focus all forces on the Belsavis system to the eastern continent of Belsavis III, call for reinforcements, and have them arrive to turn the tide. The upgraded intelligence net the Inquisitor's created had them spotted, and Danzk had the time to reinforce the exit against them, which could have resulted in their strike team being locked in, then overwhelmed as the inquisitor could call reinforcements at its leisure. They delayed, and in the end were very close from the operation turning into an utter failure.

Could there have been a reason for the eldar to have fought as they did? Probably, but the book doesn't say. Maybe divinations had been botched, maybe the corsairs didn't follow the plan and struck before the craftworld warhosts were ready to move in, or maybe a huge battle was necessary to stir the phoenix lord's spirit after its long dormancy. Again, there could be a reason - but none was given.

Overall, I'm not saying it was a bad book, and there were some interesting titbits. It definitely didn't improve my opinion of the Eldar military leadership, though .

[eldargal]

a) Time constraints, the Imperium were quite near Irillyth, maybe if the Eldar had waited any longer they may have found him.

b) The Eldar had to find where the Phoenix Lord was exactly and probe the defenses in place, they weren't in a position of omnipotence. We don't actually have much information about what the Eldar knew and when, we are making judgements based on how the IoM perceived everything. We do not have the full picture and criticising the Eldar war plan based on half the story just seems silly especially since they achieved their objective.

There could be any number of reasons, we don't know them because we only have the Imperiums account of the engagement. We only know the Eldar actually achieved their objectives because of the Inquisitor. As I've said, the Eldar weren't the stars of the book.

[Theocracity]

I agree with eldargal. We don't actually know what the Eldar were capable of. Heck, we're not even sure they knew exactly where the tomb was, or how difficult it would be to complete the operation. We can make assumptions and guesses about how easily they can use the web way or how effortless it would be to crush the Guard before reinforcements could arrive (and without risking the PL), but it's all moot if the circumstances were actually different and they planned accordingly. The Eldar aren't omnipotent, and the story works better when we allow for that.

That's not to say it's a particularly great or well written story, mind.

[Fable]

I didn't mind the headlong battles too much, and part of the reason for that is that the craftworlds were operating in more of a feint while the Corsairs were driving headlong into battle and I think that differentiation is more befitting the extreme life or death thrill that drives the Corsair. That recklessness is part of what makes watching a young Eldar stray from the path to become an Outcast so sad. When they say "you're throwing your life way" they actually mean it quite literally.

[NashTrickster]

*Has gotten hold of the book since his previous post*

Well, even in epic many, if not most, of the Titans were painted in accordance with their craftworld while their banners displayed their clan, craftworld and weaponry and any other heraldry that is deemed appropriate.

Erm... That highly depends on what version of Epic you're talking about... Codex Titanicus (which introduced the Titanic Clans) was pretty clear they didn't bear the colors of their Craftworld but of their Clans... For exemple, Fir Iolarion (the "Eagles Born of Fire", which BTW are mentionned in IA11) which originate from Saim-han do not paint their titans red and white, but blue and gold...

However IA11 doesn't so much change the clan fluff as much as it ignores it completely.

It goes as far as mentionning the "translated" names of some of them, but for some reason chooses to not explain the Clans...

From what I could find it most certainly is not a sin to paint them in the craftworld colors or out of them.

It sure isn't... Just like you can paint an Imperial titan in any scheme you wish (it's your titan after all) but we're not talking models but background here...
And I'm not complaining because they decided to paint their titans in their Craftworld colors, I couldn't care less about the paint scheme they chose, but this decision went along with the one to completely ignore the Clans' fluff, and that's IMO a huge loss as far as the Eldar background complexity is concerned.

[Vandur Last]

Tht is wrong. The 6th Cadian Armoured and unknown numbers of Arvus fighters were already stationed on the planet. The remainder arrived a month after the sensoe network was brought down. They also had unknown numbers of Planetary Defense Forces. Now I can't find any spefici mention of the numbers of guardsmen on a planet, but according to the IG codex a regiment can range from fifteen hundred to one hundred and twenty thousand men. So I don't consider having a lot of fighter craft and up to one hundred thousand men and tanks sitting in between Irillyth and the webway portals to to be 'non threatening'. You may also like to re-reead the description of the mining facility that linked to the caverns that Irillyth was in. They are fortified with heavy weapons, a militia and nine hundred workers. The interior had blast doors able to withstand reactor detonations and other defenses.

So let me spell it out:

You want a small team of Eldar to exfiltrate from one of the polar webway portals, travel undetected thousands of miles into the heart of IoM operations on the planet, infiltrate a fortified mine filled with humans and guarded by a well armed militia. They then have to locate the chamber containing the Phoenix Lord and Shadow Spectres, revive them and then escape said Imperium facility. They then have to travel thousands of miles back accross tundra and back through the webway portal. One sighting, one alarm sounded and the planets PDF, air force and an unknown number of the 6th Cadian Armoured regiments are between them and their objective or their exit.

Yeah, totally the risk-free work of hours.

The fact that the Eldar were willing to sacririce so many valuable Eldar lives in prolonged combat to ensure the retrieval of a Phoenix Lord should tell you how important the objective was, not that the Eldar are idiots.

Ok that sounds like some pretty heavy Fortifications and forces from a 40K tabletop point of view. The forces involved though were much more powerful than that. There is no way any amount of Arvus and PDF forces could have stopped the Superheavies and Titans from clearing a path to the mines. Instead of doing that the Eldar Titans spent weeks and months sitting around waiting for more Titans to show up so they could engage in a fair fight?!?

Besides the Eldar with thier advanced anti-grav vehichles dont need to take a straight line approach from Webway to target, they could have chosen to circle around. Maybe attack from the other side whilst the aforementioned Titans make a relatively risk free attack on the main Settlement in order to draw away any defenders from the mines/tomb.

No one is questioning whether the Eldar thought all this was worth it to get the PL back. Its just a matter of why they chose to pay the highest price for the thing they want when they could have gotten it practically for free and much quicker. With thier capabilities and the sheer scale of the forces they were willing to commit (and expend!) this should have been a cakewalk.

PS: obviously IA makes the IOM the protagonist, theres nothing wrong with that at all. it should be possible, however, for a writer to make a scenario that works and makes the IOM look good without turning thier supposedly smart enemies into the bumbling fool variety of Nazi as portrayed in Hogans Heroes.

[Fable]

*Has gotten hold of the book since his previous post*Erm... That highly depends on what version of Epic you're talking about... Codex Titanicus (which introduced the Titanic Clans) was pretty clear they didn't bear the colors of their Craftworld but of their Clans... For exemple, Fir Iolarion (the "Eagles Born of Fire", which BTW are mentionned in IA11) which originate from Saim-han do not paint their titans red and white, but blue and gold...

It goes as far as mentionning the "translated" names of some of them, but for some reason chooses to not explain the Clans...

It sure isn't... Just like you can paint an Imperial titan in any scheme you wish (it's your titan after all) but we're not talking models but background here...
And I'm not complaining because they decided to paint their titans in their Craftworld colors, I couldn't care less about the paint scheme they chose, but this decision went along with the one to completely ignore the Clans' fluff, and that's IMO a huge loss as far as the Eldar background complexity is concerned.

By Swordwind titans were all painted in accordance with the colors of their Craftworld which essentially constitutes a visual fluff change (I would assume you agree that imagery is part of the background?). While I am aware of the older non-craftworld related paint scheme fluff that seems to have gotten phased out and was why I mentioned it could go with the Craftworld scheme or without it and not be an assault on fluff. Your prior post implied you were strongly against painting the titans in their Craftworld colors because you wrote

Eldar Titans painted in the color of the Craftworld instead of the Clan's are as bad fluff-wise, IMHO, as Imperial Titans painted in the colors of a Space Marine Chapter...

, whereas I was suggesting that as far as background is concerned it is NOT bad and has, in fact, been supported and depicted by GW. Most of us who have Phantom Titans seem to have painted them in accordance with the Craftworld colors we use just like GW does. Your post seemed a somewhat inaccurate depiction of all of us doing a disservice to the background, completely ignoring the more recent trend of GW for the last what... 20 years or so to keep Eldar Titans painted in the same colors as their Craftworld. I felt like it was wrong to compare something that is depicted by GW (Titans in the same color as their Craftworld) as equal to something not depicted by GW (Titans in the same color as the Marine Chapter they accompany).

As I recall the very first fluff about Eldar Titans didn't indicate a clan associated with Saim-Hann and I think it was because Saim-Hann didn't exist yet, but it's hard to be very certain about that recollection.

I agree that having the Clan fluff ignored as a whole is a huge loss as I was hoping to have some more depth added to that fluff since the Phantom Titan is one of the showcase units in the book. It's really a missed opportunity, especially since there isn't likely to be another chance to address that any time soon since GW seems to have effectively given up on Epic outside of PDF support online and special order stuff.

Though it did give me a chance to really delve into my own Titan's fluff and invent a clan. Anyone who wants their titan to join Fir Dedanann feel free:

Unlike some titan variants that are piloted by triplets those of Fir Dedanann solely rely on a single steersman to operate titans along with a sophisticated array of spirit stones that work in harmony with the pilot resulting in a machine that functions with the speed, reflexes and agility of a living creature. Phantom Titans of the Fir Dedanann are piloted by reclusive steersmen who maintain the personality and name of their Titan even when they are not actively operating the machine. In fact, it is believed they can maintain a level of control over the empty vessel even when they are not at the helm, as if their temporary forays outside of the construct were as much spiritual out of body experiences as they are physical voyages.

I assume you've also been around since Rogue Trader. I found it funny to see Xian's Black Raiders get mentioned in IA11 as being associated with Ulthwe even though they were mentioned quite some time ago to have been patched-over so to speak under control of Yriel's Eldritch Raiders. The Ulthwe Steel-Eye Reavers were the only ones specifically tied to Ulthwe back then.

[NashTrickster]

Your post seemed a somewhat inaccurate depiction of all of us doing a disservice to the background, completely ignoring the more recent trend of GW for the last what... 20 years or so to keep Eldar Titans painted in the same colors as their Craftworld. I felt like it was wrong to compare something that is depicted by GW (Titans in the same color as their Craftworld) as equal to something not depicted by GW (Titans in the same color as the Marine Chapter they accompany).

It's actually been "bugging" me for 20 years now... Although, I don't remember many color artworks depicting Eldar Titans since the days of Codex Titanicus, which presented them in Clan colors, and will never consider painted models, even in a GW official publication, to be a "fluff proof"... (Or Harlequin Wraithlords would be fluffy, despite their impossibility given the fact that Harlequins do'nt use spirit stones.)

However, I think I didn't make something clear enough in my original post: my "accusation" wasn't aimed at anyone but FW (and particularly not to fans who follow the artwork you mention), because (until recently*) I expected FW to do a better job with their fluff than GW, and hoped that they'd re-introduce the concept of Clans when given the opportunity...

(* - A few recent examples, mostly in the last 3 IA, tend to show that FW now takes the "path of least resistance" when writing their IA, going for the easiest explanation, leaving aside whole chunks of fluff because it'd require "too lengthy an introduction", etc... This does not augur well for those who, like me, had to rely upon FW to bring them the more in-depth fluff that GW stopped to provide us long ago, in another century...)

As I recall the very first fluff about Eldar Titans didn't indicate a clan associated with Saim-Hann and I think it was because Saim-Hann didn't exist yet, but it's hard to be very certain about that recollection.

Sorry but, you're wrong... In this post of mine, you'll find several attachments taken straight from Codex Titanicus. The first attachment, about Fir Dinillainn, mentions Saim-hann. It hence already existed...
However, I was wrong too, I commited the "sin" of not checking and mixed my facts (my Clans and Craftworlds to be precise)... Fir Iolarion is actually listed as being from Lugganath not Saim-hann. Mea Maxima Culpa

I assume you've also been around since Rogue Trader.

You assume well...

I found it funny to see Xian's Black Raiders get mentioned in IA11 as being associated with Ulthwe even though they were mentioned quite some time ago to have been patched-over so to speak under control of Yriel's Eldritch Raiders. The Ulthwe Steel-Eye Reavers were the only ones specifically tied to Ulthwe back then.

Well, unlike "true" Craftworlders, whom I can't picture being active too far from the current location of their Craftworld (except on very special occasions, when a potential threat for the Craftworld has been "seen" to be better dealt with while it was on the other side of the galaxy, for example), some Eldar Corsair bandscould have no such geographic ties... Even if they originated from Ulthwe, they could have been active in a completely different Segmentum quite easily, and if they suffered losses could end up joining the "closest Corsair force" to avoid total annihilation. I thus don't find the 2 propositions about Xian's Black Raiders (Ulthwe ties and fusion with the Eldritch Raiders) to be in any way incompatible...

That's something in the Eldar background which is, IMHO, very badly depicted by GW...
Even considering the bad state of repair it's supposed to be in, the Webway allows the Eldar to move around the galaxy far more effectively than the Warp. So, any reason for being geographically static put aside, they should be depicted as much more active globally, moving around the galaxy in a matter of days/weeks (instead of months/years for any other race)... The only thing keeping Craftwords from uniting being their cultural differences and insular state of mind (which most of those who walk the Path of the Renegade, be they Corsairs or Rangers, would not share).

[Hendarion]

As interesting the fluff about titan clans might be, I never liked the idea of painting them differently than the rest of the army. Basically I also "only" like the colours of "my" Craftworld as probably most of the big Eldar collectors here. And I actually don't see a problem with painting them in a Craftworld colour either. There are said to be multiple clans on each major Craftworld, so why shouldn't there be ones that are closer tied to their Craftworld colours than to their own? Well... to be fully honest, I never liked the titan clan fluff that much either even in the past. They split the "unity" of a Craftworld and show old aristocratic noble families with such a hard link to pride, honour, selfishness and ignorance that has lead to the Fall and is kind of contradictory to the fact that those Eldar who left in Craftworlds where the ones that realized that the empire had been "gone the wrong way" and not the noble families who wanted to keep going in their noble pride elsewhere.

[Fable]

It's actually been "bugging" me for 20 years now... Although, I don't remember many color artworks depicting Eldar Titans since the days of Codex Titanicus, which presented them in Clan colors, and will never consider painted models, even in a GW official publication, to be a "fluff proof"... (Or Harlequin Wraithlords would be fluffy, despite their impossibility given the fact that Harlequins do'nt use spirit stones.)

Perhaps I came across as too harsh in my prior post and I apologize for that. However I'd certainly consider the imagery of the painted Biel Tan force with Revenants and Phantoms painted in Craftworld colors in the inside of one of the covers of the three rulebooks to be rather canon, along with the color artwork of the Alaitoc Revenant painted in the Craftworld colors (pre-dating the more recent camouflage like blue pattern). This was the Epic 40k boxed set that pre-dated the most recent book (which I think is Epic: Armageddon? released only as books). For the short time that they made those awful looking Eldar Phantoms they were always presented in Craftworld colors. I can't think of another time that GW replaced new models with old models the way they did with those Phantoms.

Quick note about the Harlequin Wraithlords... that little addendum to Gav's Harlequin list that the Citadel Journal put out was written by Rasmus, one of the mods from the Eldar Online Forums. I don't think I've ever forgiven him for that, but considering the Journal did have fan made inclusions it's real tough for me to consider it canon.

[Hendarion]

Well, the trend is that newer style seams to be titans in Craftworld colours anyway. If we're talking about "early 90's" style, then Space Marines and Guardians should all be striped like bees, dotted like jaguars or cows. Painting patterns change, same like background - once upon a time in a WHFB in space the Marines had been hard-die-prisoners.
About the Harlequin-Wraithlord... it is... meh. You could try to explain that a soul which once was a Craftworlder turned to a Harlequin inside the infinity circuit and thus was expelled from it, put into a Wraithlord. You see, it might work, but imo we'd better forget about them entirely.

[NashTrickster]

Well... to be fully honest, I never liked the titan clan fluff that much either even in the past. They split the "unity" of a Craftworld and show old aristocratic noble families with such a hard link to pride, honour, selfishness and ignorance that has lead to the Fall and is kind of contradictory to the fact that those Eldar who left in Craftworlds where the ones that realized that the empire had been "gone the wrong way" and not the noble families who wanted to keep going in their noble pride elsewhere.

That's where FW could have done an update work on the fluff, by making the Clans be more like an Aspect Temple, a very uncommon sort of Path...

As far as Clans "which happen to share the same colour scheme as their Craftworld", I see no problem with that either...

In fact, what's really been bugging me about FW's "ignoring" of the old Eldar fluff is that it ends up making Eldar Titans into "just another machine in the Eldar Arsenal" by removing everything that made their steersmen special. The very specific requirements listed in the original depiction of Eldar Titan pilots (siblings if not twins, bearers of unremovable headbands, etc...) made the pilots more "interesting" IMHO. It could have been better exploited, by stating it was the relative rarity of potential pilots which restricted the number of Titans a given Craftworld could field (instead of the lack of machines themselves)... That IMHO would have gone pretty well with the theme of the Eldar (and the fact that it's the exact counter-point of the Imperium, never lacking manpower but whose Titans are truly rarities is just a plus)...
But nowadays, just pushing it a little, it seems that any Eldar could pilot a Titan.

Perhaps I came across as too harsh in my prior post and I apologize for that.

No problem...

However I'd certainly consider the imagery of the painted Biel Tan force with Revenants and Phantoms painted in Craftworld colors in the inside of one of the covers of the three rulebooks to be rather canon, along with the color artwork of the Alaitoc Revenant painted in the Craftworld colors (pre-dating the more recent camouflage like blue pattern). This was the Epic 40k boxed set that pre-dated the most recent book (which I think is Epic: Armageddon? released only as books). For the short time that they made those awful looking Eldar Phantoms they were always presented in Craftworld colors.

Well, like I said, painted models put aside, I simply couldn't remember any artwork which pictured Titans in their Craftworld's color. Now that you mention it, I do remember the Revenant one...
But regardless, I still think making Titans just another part of a Craftworld's arsenal, without any "distance" of any sort, is just making them too mundane. Just my humble opinion

[Formerly Wu]

The problem with arguing about the Eldar's tactics on Betalis are that we simply don't know what the Eldar knew, or exactly what the Eldar were capable of. We have a good accounting of the Imperium's thought process and intel, and very little of the Eldar's. For example, we don't know:

• When the Farseer determined the exact location of the lost Phoenix Lord.
• How much the Eldar knew of the Cadian 6th's deployment and force disposition prior to the invasion.
• How long it would take for sufficient forces to gather at the webway portals, muster on Betalis, and ritually prepare for war once there.
• The relative amount of coordination between the Corsairs and the Craftworlds. They clearly had very different goals, and some infighting is alluded to.
• How well the Farseer could predict the actions of the various players, including the Inquisitor.

Any one of these could have been sufficient to explain the Eldar's somewhat mystifying strategic decisions. For example, if a Phantom Titan requires a fortnight of supplication and strict ritual to prepare for war, it wouldn't be much use in a sudden shock attack, especially if you're not even sure exactly where your critically important, fragile demi-god is supposed to be located. And if your clairvoyance has only said "the gods of war must be awakened," then you'd be better off rousing the entire warhost while the ritual is ongoing. And if your corsair allies engage in some unplanned plundering which tips your hand...

Edit: or maybe it was something even simpler. Maybe the stars "weren't right yet," or they were taking time to conform their actions to that of characters in an old Eldar myth, or the Farseer saw a frowny face in the bottom of his bowl of oatmeal. The Eldar are a portent-minded race, who model their daily life on stories and strict mental states and whose language is a series of references to legend. Things we find completely irrational are deadly serious to the Eldar.

Since we're not privy to any of this information (and the poorer for it), we can only see the Eldar's choices in the context of wastefulness and plot necessity. But just because we don't understand the mind of the xenos doesn't mean they're making poor (from their point of view) choices.

[TheDoctor]

Actually, doesn't it state that the pilots of Phantom titans are "Exarchs", and that usually the pilots of Revenants are siblings? Forgot where I read this though

[Poseidal]

Also I found the "it's all a feint to get a Phoenix Lord back" to be inappropriate to the scale of the battle. That's story would've sounded less dumb if it was a small 40k battle, but it becomes silly to waste so many lives, ships, titans and super heavies just to get your Aspect Lord back.

Just stepping in a bit late, but this reminded me of something.

Maybe the objective was to retrieve the Phoenix Lord. The reason for fighting is to combat ennui.

[Vandur Last]

Oh hey, just found this old thread in my bookmarks. Since I was so disappointed in the long awaited Eldar FW book I have stopped playing or caring about 40K entirely. Good job FW, mission accomplished!

Thats obviously what you wanted right? For Xenos players to either switch to marines or go away, right?
For myself I've chosen to go away and play Firestorm Armada.

[Noserenda]

Phew, lucky i dug out my old Eldar army and added some new toys, otherwise im not sure theyd be able to sleep at night!

[davion]

This book lost me when the so called hi-tech Eldar aircraft were doing strafing runs and getting shot down by tanks. Kept thinking that they could have used some of our modern day jets and missiles. The impression I got from the book is that despite outnumbering the IG, and despite claiming their objective the Eldar got their skinny butts handed to them. The way Eldar are depicted in fluff this last decade makes me wonder how in the hell they survived the Emperor's crusades.

[Shamana]

As was often mentioned, we don't really know what was happening on the Eldar side and what kind of a mess they were in. That is given as the excuse for why they did things that made little sense; I consider the lack of an information to be the problem, not an explanation.

Ironically, for much of the fight, they were the faceless horde that had to be held back by the heroic, outnumbered defenders until the cavalry arrives, and from a trope perspective there are a certain ways such horde is supposed to act. They attack when provoked (it feels like, to quote the DE leader from DoW: Soulstorm - they attack an enemy because it is there), attack en masse in an open field when they have the advantage of choosing where and when to hit, and despite superior numbers go for the fringes instead of hitting the center from the get-go. Overall, I find it a strange depiction of how I'd imagine Eldar to fight. The ones in the Belsavis campaign reminded me of Orks sometimes .

See, maybe there are good explanations for all that. Maybe the farseer flubbed his divination or just got an ominous undertone that caused him to be cautious (which ironically heralded the arrival of the space wolves and other reinforcements, which could have been preempted if the Eldar had gone for the throat). Maybe the corsairs were barely controlled at best and didn't really follow tactical orders that much, and they dragged the craftworld forces into several fights the more disciplined and experienced craftworlders would have followed differently (i.e. strafing Imperial armour columnts on an open plain). Maybe there were personal issues between the more conservative farseers (Alaitoc aren't famous for being understanding to those who have no patience for the path, and Mymeara is described as even more puritan), and the eccentric, libertarian and wild corsairs "princes". Maybe it was decided that the Phoenix Lord has first to be roused by a great battle, and it was considered an acceptable price even if a lot of the blood spilled is Eldar one. Heck, maybe there HAD to be a lot Eldar blood spilled - the phoenix lords are Khaine's prophets, and the Bloody-Handed God is not a deity that gives his boons freely even to his stepchildren. Maybe there are good reasons for what the Eldar did and didn't do - but we aren't shown any of them. We're just shown the Eldar dithering and squandering their advantages while they had full superiority, and folding fairly quickly after that. Hardly the nearly prescient, well-disciplined and well-oiled machine designed to take on forces far bigger than itself they are billed as. Heck, the DE codex mentions a kabal turning a hive world into a ghost planet, and here two craftworld expeditionary forces and a lot of corsair allies are beat back from a planet that can be described as a "backyard listening post."

It wasn't as bad as Orar's Sepulchre and that fight with Imhotep, to be honest, but apart from a few moments I didn't see the Eldar fighting (win or lose) as they are supposed to. Geez, I know Eldar have got to lose sometimes, but what's the problem of an elite, small force like the Eldar losing to (or, more smartly, quickly fleeing from) an enemy who simply outnumbers and outguns them a LOT? I'm thinking the authors tend to go for the "heroic ountumbered victory" for the designated protagonist as it is the most heroic victory - no matter whether such fights are typical for the faction's MO.