More Second Founding Fun (Minor Void Stalker Spoilers)

[MajorWesJanson]

Well, we have some new numbers on Second Founding chapters, at least of the Ultramarines, as per ADB"s great Void Stalker.




'It was the Ultramarines'. Talos lowered his head, surrendering to the memory now.
'A thousand warriors?' The Apothecary's eyes widened.'That's all?'
'You think in such small terms,' Talos chuckled. 'The Ultramarines. Their sons. Their brothers. Their cousins. The entire Legion, reborn after the heresy, wearing hundreds of icons proclaiming their new allegiances. They called themselves the Primogenitors. I believe their descendants still do.'
'you mean the ultramarines' kindred chapters?" Variel could almost picture it now. 'How many of them?'
All of them, Variel,' Talos said softly, seeing the sky once again on that distant day. 'All of them.'

With the more recent numbers, it makes sense to basically take the numbers of successor chapters for each legion and add a zero to the end of it.
Ultramarines would have about 230 chapters, after losing a lot of troops from their initial 250,000 at Calth and then restocking from local worlds as they expand during the Scouring
Most of the other Legions would have around 30 to 60 successors, due to taking losses but not rebuilding as quickly as the Ultramarines.

There are 21 listed second founding chapters for the other chapters, while Ultramarines have 16 named but 23 mentioned in total. Multiply that out, and you have something close to 440 successor chapters, 450 with the originals. The rey Knights number 666 thus would not be too far off in that scenario. The slight majority of Ultramarines successors over everyone else's also fits well with the 60% total of all chapters later.

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

Sounds good to me. Most of GW numbers needs at least one or two zeroes added to them to even begin to make sense (apart from when dealing with time, where it really should be dramatically less than what GW says) so anywhere GW starts edging towards that is good news as far as I'm concerned.

[jareddm3]

I'm all for the greater number of second founding chapters. My only quip is people seem to forget that the majority of those chapters probably didn't survive into M41. Most likely many of them were wiped out in one of the major turmoils that wracked the imperium since. That way, there is still great pride in being a second founding, rather than it just becoming "the new thing" that every DIY chapter has.

[shadowhawk2008]

Its a nod to the new GK codex which mentions that there were somewhere around 400 chapters at the time of the Second Founding.

[baphomael]

On the subject of the grey knights chapter number, that isn't an indication of them being the 666th chapter, but rather they were given that number for its mystical importance.

Technically, the grey knights were founded before there was a Second Founding.

[Londinium]

Not really related but I liked the way the Primogenitors were working together in that part of Void Stalker. Perhaps it's an easy assumption to make but it seems like the Ultramarines were still leading their successors like one legion even years after the Codex. Which is a bit hypocritical but probably no surprise to those who hate the Ultrasmurfs.

[shadowhawk2008]

The mentions of the Primogenitors and their role in changing the course of history for the Night Lords after the Heresy was, I think, the highlight of the novel. My only gripe is that Aaron didn't have the space to really delve into it. On its own, I would love for it to be explored further by him, perhaps in the style of a Space Marine Battles novel akin to Battle of the Fang. I'd be all over that.

[thor2006]

The mentions of the Primogenitors and their role in changing the course of history for the Night Lords after the Heresy was, I think, the highlight of the novel. My only gripe is that Aaron didn't have the space to really delve into it. On its own, I would love for it to be explored further by him, perhaps in the style of a Space Marine Battles novel akin to Battle of the Fang. I'd be all over that.

What the Primogenitors did to change the course of history for the Night Lords?

[shadowhawk2008]

Well, as it happens, and if my reading is correct:

The Primogenitors attacked the Night Lords directly at Tsagualsa. Sort of like how the Word Bearers attacked Calth. It was the first time the Night Lords experienced the full-scale effects of the Codex Astartes as the Ultramarines and the Primogenitors destroyed the Night Lords fleet in orbit and stormed their fortress on the planet in a way that the Night Lords just couldn't match. The Legion had already been floundering since the death of the Night Haunter as warbands broke off and some never returned while some came back infrequently. A nail in the coffin as it were. Tsagualsa was destroyed and the legion pretty much finally sundered.

[Terminatorphoenix]

I never thought I'd say this about the Night Lords, but that's really sad.

[MajorWesJanson]

On the subject of the grey knights chapter number, that isn't an indication of them being the 666th chapter, but rather they were given that number for its mystical importance.

Technically, the grey knights were founded before there was a Second Founding.

Oh, I agree. But having 400 some chapters makes one with the number 666 seem less out of place than having say 50 second founders then one numbered in the high hundreds.

As for the UM actions, I loved that part too. I hope the Horus Heresy books continue into the Scouring, and cover the creation of the Imperium as we know it.

[sweave]

I'm all for the greater number of second founding chapters. My only quip is people seem to forget that the majority of those chapters probably didn't survive into M41. Most likely many of them were wiped out in one of the major turmoils that wracked the imperium since. That way, there is still great pride in being a second founding, rather than it just becoming "the new thing" that every DIY chapter has.

going back to the records of the 25 ultramarine second founding chapters
i just always assumed that only those 25 chapters were able to definitely able to trace themselves back to the second founding or at least that the imperium was able to trace and that all others were kinda lost in the paper shuffling of the heresy/scouring

[baphomael]

Oh, I agree. But having 400 some chapters makes one with the number 666 seem less out of place than having say 50 second founders then one numbered in the high hundreds.

As for the UM actions, I loved that part too. I hope the Horus Heresy books continue into the Scouring, and cover the creation of the Imperium as we know it.

I don't think it would have mattered how many chapters there would have been (afterall, they began the process during the siege of Terra, the Codex hadn't been implemented yet.) They would have always been chapter 666 due to 666 being a mystical number. It's the same reason they have the 666 Secret Words etc.

It only looks out of place if you view them in the normal structure of Foundings, but the grey knights are a bit different in this regard. Even other Marines arnt supposed to know they exist, let alone that a chapter designated 666 was being created at the end of the Heresy.

But then, this is all academic, as it doesn't really have any bearing on how many Ultramarine successors were created during the Second Founding, since the Grey Knights were a separate and discreet founding.

[Lupe]

I don't think it would have mattered how many chapters there would have been (afterall, they began the process during the siege of Terra, the Codex hadn't been implemented yet.) They would have always been chapter 666 due to 666 being a mystical number. It's the same reason they have the 666 Secret Words etc.

Yes, but the process was finished at the same time or shortly after the break-up of the legions. Otherwise, the term Chapter wouldn't even be relevant at the time. They'd be named Legion 666, if there weren't a bunch of chapters running around the Imperium by then.

[baphomael]

Yes, but the process was finished at the same time or shortly after the break-up of the legions. Otherwise, the term Chapter wouldn't even be relevant at the time. They'd be named Legion 666, if there weren't a bunch of chapters running around the Imperium by then.

This is true (albeit, chapters were still around, at least as divisions of a Legion). My point was merely their founding was don't in isolation, separate from the Second Founding, and no matter how many chapters were established, grey knights would still have been number 666.

But anyways, as to how many UM successors were founded, we'd need to have a rough idea of how many Chapters within the Legion survived the Heresy, as imagine it would have simply been a matter of shaving off chapters into their own autonomous formations.

[Leftenant Gashrog]

With the more recent numbers, it makes sense to basically take the numbers of successor chapters for each legion and add a zero to the end of it.

Depends on your idea of the Heresy. A lot of the recent retcons were a result of GW going back and rereading the original Heresy fluff from the early days of Epic. Back then Legions (I'll call them that for simplicity rather than sidetrack into the terminology debate) were larger: tenS of thousands instead of a singular ten - but that didn't mean the second founding was any larger because the Heresy was depicted as.. well.. an epic decade long struggle that bled the Astartes dry on a thousand worlds rather than the quick "wham-bam-thankyou-mam, everyone make their 3+ power armour save to survive the war" that we got with most of the IA series:

No quarter was asked, no quarter was given. Hatred drove us. Hatred and fear.
Aye, fear. For we were the finest warriors in the universe, elite among elite, the chosen of humanity.
Once we had acknowledged no foe as our equal. Now we must – for were not these men the same asourselves? Spawned from geneseed, trained by masters, armed and equipped with the best from humanity's realm. Finally we faced a for worthy of fear, a mirror image of ourselves and all we believed in. In this nightmare, brother against false brother to the death. Is it any wonder we knew
fear?
We fought like tigers but were met with equal ferocity. We shot accurately. Our eyes were like those of hawks. Yet equal numbers fell from our ranks. We met at close quarters. Weapons flashed and gouged but who was to say which was faster? For every Traitor who fell, so fell a loyal brother.
The battle surged back and forth till finally in the end true faith prevailed and we had the mastery.
Yet we were slaughtered. But one in ten survived. The city was dust.
Lexicanian Elisar Trask, Ultramarines at the Scouring of Tallarn

[Mikial]

On the subject of the grey knights chapter number, that isn't an indication of them being the 666th chapter, but rather they were given that number for its mystical importance.

Technically, the grey knights were founded before there was a Second Founding.

Correct. The GK were founded, or at least the foundation of the founding was laid before the Heresy took place.

[shadowhawk2008]

Correct. The GK were founded, or at least the foundation of the founding was laid before the Heresy took place.

And you know this because????

[mob16151]

So question about voidstalker

What was the deal with the Sevatar is alive thing?

[Lupe]

What's the deal with Elvis being alive? Or the Moon landings being fake?

It's an in-universe example of people coming up with wild theories about more famous people... And opinions are mixed about the matter, even among the Night Lords. Most have no doubts that he's dead. Some still cling to the absence of evidence in order to retain some hope. After all, everybody pretty much agrees that Sevatar is the only Night Lord respected enough to hold the VIIIth Legion together after Curze's death. So, if there's a possibility he's still alive, there's also a possibility that the Legion will one day reunite and find its focus again. Doesn't make it much more than rumours and wishful thinking, that are in the book for the sole purpose of showing that even space marines aren't immune to doubts and hopes