Cities of Ulthuan (and other high elf questions)

[TheDungen]

Lo folks
I'm writing a background for my High elf army and there are some things I need to know. Oh and there might be slight spoilers in the questions below nothing major though.

I was wondering what you could tell me of cities in Ulthuan. More specifically is there a capital of Saphery and so what is its name. Where did all those Saphyrian Phoenix kings (Mostly just the last one Bel-Hathor, the sage) reign from, they couldn't have reigned from the white tower since only mages and those who want to be mages are allowed there. I remember the sunderign mentioning the floating city of Sapethion but that city is said to have been destroyed in the Sundering.

And

Anything you can tell me about Tor Achare? I know its the capital of Chrace, it seems to have changed position a few times during the years (5th edition places it in the mountains later sources closer to the sea. I'm guessing a fjord or a river? Malekith calls it one of the great fortresses of Ulthuan like Anlec or Tor Caled (and unlike tor Anroc) in the sundering. is there anything else we know from the real sources?

And which Black Library novels include Teclis?

Any other facts on elven society I should know? I've read the Sundering trilogy and all army books since 5th edition.

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

Off the top of my head I can't remember any sources that goes into details with any of that. Elven cities are basically names on a map, we have a very short description of Lothern, some bits about the White Tower, some references to the Everqueens court and Asuryan's shrine on the Isle of Flame but that's about it. Warhammer Online might have some more stuff, depending on how you feel about that game.

Teclis appears in one of the Gotrek and Felix novels, the one on Albion I think (Giantslayer?), but I don't know how much he is actually in it as I haven't read it.

[Athelassan]

As far as novels go, Teclis is in Blood of Aenarion and the forthcoming sequels. He's also in Giantslayer.

As for the cities, if you have the High Elf army books and the Sundering trilogy then you know as much as anyone. It might be possible, though, that the Sapherian Phoenix Kings maintained their courts at Lothern. They don't necessarily have to hold court in the province they're from, and if there aren't any major cities in Saphery any more, Lothern isn't far.

[TheDungen]

The thing is Finubar is the first Phoenix king from Eatine. So there is no reason for the court to have been there before he came to power. Before him all nearly all Phoenix kings were either from Caledor or from Saphery.


Are there no cities described in the Blood of Aenarion books?

As for Age of reckoning, its inspiration to me but not canon. Tor Achare there lies by a fjord but since its in an mmorpg its much smaller than it should be and also its not a fortress in any way.

I was considering writing tor Achare on a few cliffs in the middle of the fjord if nothing contradicts it, a bit like Pyke in game of thrones but in the middle of a fjord. That would sound more like the unconquerable fortress Malekith mentions.

Well if there's nothing on a city in Saphery then I'll just make one up, if they add one at a later date i'll have to rewrite those chapters. When i first heard floating city i thought on the water not in the air maybee I'll write a city like that (in fact a flying city was a little over the top for me anyway).

[Darkminion]

There is but one Phoenix King and he holds court in the city of Naggarond in Naggaroth and has done so for thousands of years.

All hail Malekith!

D...

[Antreus]

Teclis also features in the last Blackhearts novel quite prominently to my recollection.

[Athelassan]

Finubar might be the first PK from Eataine but that doesn't necessarily mean that no PK would have held court in Lothern before that - it was probably still the largest city in Ulthuan before he came to power. If Tor Anroc, Tor Caled and Saphethion were the capitals of their respective regions before the Sundering and were all lost it's conceivable - even likely - that the next PKs would establish their courts at another convenient nearby city. Especially since Lothern is in the south, and thus is less vulnerable to attack from druchii powerbases in the north. We know that Lothern was the capital under Caledor II, because that's where the Dwarf ambassadors were sent prior to the War of the Beard.

Then once the court is established within a city it could be difficult to move it without very good cause, and Lothern could have been established as a "default" capital. Caradryel could conceivably have moved it to Tor Yvresse but, again, that might have been considered dangerously close to druchii territory considering they'd just launched another invasion, or too difficult to reach. The capital needs to maintain good communication networks with the rest of the kingdoms and Lothern is well-placed for this (more so than Tor Achare or Tor Yvresse). Aethis held court in Saphery but he wasn't exactly a roaring success. His successors might have moved the court back to Lothern to dissociate themselves from his rule. It seems likely that Bel-Hathor had his capital at Lothern, too (see the background on Finubar - he returns to Lothern to persuade the PK to lift the interdict on trade, not to any other city)

It could even be the case that Lothern was originally chosen as a capital by Caledor (one of them) because Eataine was relatively insignificant, and its status as the capital ultimately led to its gaining some political clout and Finubar's ultimate succession to the throne.

I'd also suggest that the White Tower might not be just a tower. There might well be - in fact almost certainly is - a larger settlement around it of which the Tower is just the most noteworthy feature. It's rare that you get institutions like that in complete isolation. Apart from anything else, they need to have some sort of logistical support network in place.

Something else worth bearing in mind is that depending on the power of the Phoenix King, the so-called capital may not be all that significant anyway, as if the King has a lot of personal power, the effective capital will be the immediate area of his person regardless of where in the land he is. The notion of a capital only really becomes important if you have a large bureaucracy or the king remains fairly sedentary and a government industry builds up around them. An action-hero king like Caledor I or Tethlis probably just had a temporary base of operations that moved with them.

[woodster17]

As always, a lot of what you say is true Athelassan. It is generally the case that the incumbent Phoenix King set's up court in the capital of his own state. Bel-Shanaar in Tor Anroc, Caledor I officially in Tor Caled but in reality he spent little time at home since the entire nation was ravaged by war as you suggest. His base of operations was on the road with his generals. Finubar seems to have continued the trend of setting up court in Lothern, mainly because in the aftermath of The Sundering, many of the more historic strongholds of Elven power had been lost to the mercy of the seas. As it stands in modern Ulthuan, there a very few cities that make sense in holding court, especially if you consider that the future of the Elven race increasingly relies upon trade with Men. Lothern is not only the mightiest city in Ulthuan but it's only significant port.

The White Tower is not merely a tower, no. However, as detailed in Sons of Ellyrion the outlying settlement is hardly considered 'large' by any means. To all extents and purposes it is simply a tower with the barracks, stables and living quarters for the Swordmasters spread around the base. The basis of the tower is that enchantments mean that you can't approach the tower unless the mages of Saphery deem you worthy. It's impossible to lay siege to the place. As such, there is little need for external protection in the form of buildings.

This is a pleasing topic by the way. More questions please!

[Urgat]

Teclis appears in one of the Gotrek and Felix novels, the one on Albion I think (Giantslayer?), but I don't know how much he is actually in it as I haven't read it.

He's in there quite a lot. He is very... high elvish. Excepted for the part where he sleeps with females, that is. That's not very high elvish

The White Tower is in Warhammer Online, btw. It's veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery big.

[The bearded one]

He's in there quite a lot. He is very... high elvish. Excepted for the part where he sleeps with females, that is. That's not very high elvish

* badum tish! *

Twins, if I recall correctly...?

[Francis]

Twins indeed, and I actually considers it to be very high elven, they are elves after all not monks. They just think that they are better than everybody else and that doesn't mean they are going to give up on pleasure. As far as I am concerned both Giant Slayer and Blood of Aenarion are great books and depicts Teclis, Tyrion and High Elves in general perfectly. Defenders of Ulthuan and sons of Ellyrion however are not worth the paper they are printed on, which is sad since I usually like the work of Graham McNeill quite a lot. He just seems to have lost his bearings with those two books.

[The bearded one]

Isn't Teclis a cripple? Who has to take potions to keep his strength up?

.. in the context of him sleeping with high elf twins, these statements suddenly become rather... dubious. Mr happy pills?

[Urgat]

Twins indeed, and I actually considers it to be very high elven, they are elves after all not monks.

You didn't understand me, but I guess it's fine, in fact

[LotlBotl]

Isn't Teclis a cripple? Who has to take potions to keep his strength up?

As it is nowadays, Teclis only needs potions and drugs to cast certain spells.

He's still not terribly active, but hey, that's why women have to take the lead sometimes. And it's kinda implied that they're doing it to try and get closer to his twin.

Mr happy pills?

High Elves indeed.

[Židrek]

As it is nowadays, Teclis only needs potions and drugs to cast certain spells.

He's still not terribly active, but hey, that's why women have to take the lead sometimes. And it's kinda implied that they're doing it to try and get closer to his twin.



High Elves indeed.

Well if the girls are willing its time to have them give the Sword of Teclis a good polishing and get stabbing. Besides I'm sure the girls like his magic hands.

[The bearded one]

And it's kinda implied that they're doing it to try and get closer to his twin.

Ah, that's the kind of high elves we remember.

Makes you think of that old special rule they had, 'intrigue at the court'

[LotlBotl]

What I really liked about Blood of Aenarion is that it allowed for the Asur/Druchii love of intrigue to come to fore, even in subtle ways sometimes.

It did annoy me that Teclis was always trying to rationalize out loud what Finubar was doing though.

(when I asked Bill if there were going to be any of the Lizardmen notable character in Sword of Caledor, I was sad when he said nope. )

[BobtheInquisitor]

Defenders of Ulthuan and sons of Ellyrion however are not worth the paper they are printed on, which is sad since I usually like the work of Graham McNeill quite a lot. He just seems to have lost his bearings with those two books.

I personally found Defenders of Ulthuan and Sons of Ellyrion to be better, more enjoyable books than the Sundering series, although I liked both. Graham nailed High Elven eccentricity and drama heightened emotional sensitivity, while also including a lot of fun character moments and action. Gav wrote some fun books, but he just has a real problem with telling instead of showing, and his elves feel a bit more "generic fantasy" to me.

You didn't understand me, but I guess it's fine, in fact

I think we all get what you're saying.

[TheDungen]

About the capital not moving I think if it was in lothern since Caledor II then the princes of lothern would've been appointed to the throne much earlier, its implied that the reason that Lorthern grows and the status of Eatine grows is that its the only port allowed to take foreign ships and that decision is made in the reign of Bel-Hathor, the phoenix king before Finubar.

As for the white tower I remember reading it was surrounded by miles of magical illusions and traps to make sure only worthy disciples would ever be allowed to train in the tower, how can there be town then? is it many miles way from the tower? And never the less i doubt the white tower would be very good to hold court in.


my biggest issue with the sundering was that gav let everything take so long, i understand its meant to show the elves don't view time as us but marching a certain distance doesn't take longer for and elf, in fact it should take a shorter time. It was always 2 years have past since last time and basically nothing have happened, that's just ridiculous.

[Athelassan]

That's not necessarily his fault - he'd be bound by the existing timeline of the Sundering.