Cities of Ulthuan (and other high elf questions)

[Francis]

You didn't understand me, but I guess it's fine, in fact

Aha so that was what you were aiming at... I think I might have started to block such associations out of hand. After x numbers of these comments it starts to get old.

@Bobtheinquisitor: I liked his portrayal of the elves, I just didn't like not the way he made the elven race in general look weak and very very very close to extinct (a few thousand elves to defend Lothern? Really??) while their heroes were portrayed as demi-gods holding it all together by themselves. After reading the defender books I came to the conclusion that the only High elves left on Ulthuan are Tyrion and friends, and in a way that offends me.

[TheDungen]

Yeah i always read dying race as a couple of millions (or hundreds of thousands), compared to the billions of humans that seems to be living in the empire and brettonia (who must live there in order to uphold the fact that they're almost constantly at war)

[Col. Tartleton]

Yeah i always read dying race as a couple of millions (or hundreds of thousands), compared to the billions of humans that seems to be living in the empire and brettonia (who must live there in order to uphold the fact that they're almost constantly at war)

The Empire and Bretonnia each have populations that logically are at least in the tens of millions as they are significantly larger than the equivalent renaissance era HRE and France they're modeled on, and furthermore they've got magic.

The Elven cities of Ulthuan and Naggaroth are enormous. From the artwork, Lothern's spires look like Burj Khalifa. Warhammer is as "Big" is 40k, it's just in a microcosm. The same sense of stupendous scale is there. Lothern is something akin to the hives of Necromunda although I think it's safe to say somewhat smaller and very much nicer.

Though I'd like to see the scale translate more evenly. It would make more sense. Altdorf ought to be a vast metropolitan area akin to Cologne which is something like 10 million people. You can adjust the size from medieval to modern on the back on magic and get a very interesting Gothic renaissance sensibility. Imagine a city of crumbling cathedral spires and massive wattle and daub tenements full of decrepit people stretching over miles and miles of territory with feral griffons soaring over the vast expanse.

[Athelassan]

I prefer to keep the populations of the various nations slightly more "realistic" but then I don't go in for the "constant war" vibe to the extent the background seems to demand either. I can cope with a background of war, but I prefer to think of it as akin to the long border "wars" between, say, England and Scotland which really boil down to a few hundred guys on each side constantly raiding and brawling with each other, rather than millions of men being raised every five minutes to fight a massive incursion. Massive incursions make more impact when they're relatively rare. I'm aware this isn't a terribly popular view with anyone other than WFRP players, though.

I know that there's magic in the Warhammer world, but there's still a limit to food production capacity and that's assuming that magic makes a significant difference. College wizards have better things to do than help crops grow and even then they've only been around for a couple of generations.

As such I keep in mind a population of about 18-20 million for the Empire, which is larger than "contemporary" Germany, but not by too much (to account for the "constant war", the fact that much of the land is actively hostile to settlement, etc.) and about 20-25 million for Bretonnia. For Ulthuan I'd suggest about five million (slightly larger than "contemporary" England) but relatively decentralised. Lothern might only have an elven population of about 75,000 or so (which, given that Blood of Aenarion indicates there are more humans in Lothern than elves, still gives it a total population larger than all but the very biggest of human cities).

[TheDungen]

I'm going to disregard that piece of fluff actually Finubar would never alow enough humans into lothern to be a possible threat to Ulthuan. Otherwise i like your numbers. as for constant war, well the empire are alot of small nations that are only really united against major external threats, they'll likely fight a constant war but as you said they wont be that large (think a couple of warhammer battles), i can also see the western lords of the empire picking a fight with brettonia whenever they get a chance to, or plotting to retake Marienburg.

Ulthuan needs more cities its as simple as that, the oens we've got right now are:

Lothern - Really big
Tor Yvresse - Propably quite big
Tor Elyr - Not so big most people live with their horses in the fields.
Tor Achare - The capital of a decentralized kingdom with the lowest total population in Ulthuan, smallish population (but a major fortress)
Tor Anroc - Dead and gone
Anlec- dead and gone

That leaves us with two large cities and two small ones. I'm going to make up capitals for the other kingdoms. if they make up other ones late ri'll just change it to be thoose isntead.

Here goes:
Saphetion (rebuilt by the seashore close to the white tower. either on land or floating on the water)
Tor Caled (Rebuilt following being buried in lava in the sundering)
Tor Minaith (new capital of Tiranoc, Means city of the lost way in high elven)
Tor Lathain (capital of Cotique, means City of storms in high elven, or is there a capital of cotique mentioned anywhere?)


I'm leaving Nagarythe and Avelorn without capitals because both those peoples are described as nomadic. I guess the Nagaruthians have sacred and secret places wher ethe clans meet but only they would know anything about that so i ignore it.

also on elven longevity I always saw it as the elves can basically live forever but its highly unlikely. There is no definite upper limit to their lifespan but few live longer than 2000-3000 years. But seeing as Anlith anar lives (he's seen interacting with Eltharion) and there's that guy who carries the phoenix kings banner in the 6th ed army book who was one of the hunter who rescued Imrik from the assassin's it seems that its possible for an elf to live that long.

Also is there anything about Korhian Ironglaive (the last captain of the white lions) except him being killed by Urian Poisonblade?

[Eldred91]

Tor Anroc still exists as Kouran raids it in the Dark Elf Book

[TheDungen]

you're sure that its not just the ruins he raids?

[Eldred91]

you're sure that its not just the ruins he raids?

Pretty sure, its repeatedly referred to as a city and is mentioned to be the capital of Tiranoc. Patrols, sentries and guards are also mentioned which would seem excessive for a ruin.

[Athelassan]

Given that in Caledor it was completely submerged it seems that there's been some revision going on. Or maybe they just set it up on a new site and called it Tor Anroc.

[TheDungen]

The maps show it beign on an island now, maybe the mages used magic to rise it from above the waves again? Or maybee the initial wave drowned the city but when it recoiled some of the city stood on high enough ground to be on an island.

The again i could see the Tiranoci guarding the ruins as well.

[Urgat]

Or, most certainly, it's from a BL book, and therefore has been disregarded already.

[Athelassan]

Same author, though (Gav Thorpe) so you'd imagine he knows what's what in that respect.

[TheDungen]

A subtle hint you want Gav to answer the question? Ha if he answered every question we had here he wouldn't have time to write any books. I'm going with Parts of Tor Anroc was on high ground and those parts have been rebuilt. The city is now on an island, most of the city is in the waters around the island. The city is very unlikely to be more than mentioned in my story anyway.

[Athelassan]

No - if Gav wants to reply that's up to him; I don't expect him to. It's just curious: you see BL books (or WFRP books) being disregarded by studio writers all the time and the assumption is that they haven't read them, which seems very likely. It's just odd to see a writer disregarding their own material, because you can be fairly certain they're doing it deliberately. It suggests that the earlier source of background wasn't ignored so much as intentionally changed.

[Eldred91]

Caledor was also published after the army book. But the two need not be contradictory. The Sundering is described as a wall of water, it seems legitimate that although the city was initially submerged the water could later have receded. Or that the city was refounded sometime afterwards, 4000 years is plenty of time for things to change.

[TheDungen]

yeah in 4000 you could begins to see the effects of climate change even. I wonder how the vortex affects Ulthuan in those matters.

[Urgat]

No - if Gav wants to reply that's up to him; I don't expect him to. It's just curious: you see BL books (or WFRP books) being disregarded by studio writers all the time and the assumption is that they haven't read them, which seems very likely. It's just odd to see a writer disregarding their own material, because you can be fairly certain they're doing it deliberately. It suggests that the earlier source of background wasn't ignored so much as intentionally changed.

You can't expect him to remember every detail of his own books either. I've been writing ONE book (for years, ok), and I don't remember half the details, I keep going back and reread it again to make things fool-proof.

[Arnizipal]

also on elven longevity I always saw it as the elves can basically live forever but its highly unlikely. There is no definite upper limit to their lifespan but few live longer than 2000-3000 years. But seeing as Anlith anar lives (he's seen interacting with Eltharion) and there's that guy who carries the phoenix kings banner in the 6th ed army book who was one of the hunter who rescued Imrik from the assassin's it seems that its possible for an elf to live that long.

There are Phoenix Kings that died of old age, so I don't think Elves can live forever without magical aid (like Malekith and Morathi who both have been kicking around for over 5 millenia).

It is rumoured that the name Alith Anar might be passed on from one Shadow King to the next as a badge of honour (and to keep up the image of the immortal avenger).

[TheDungen]

Still doesn't explain how the phoenix kings standard bearer was one of the elves that saved Imrik from the assassin's.

A death always has a reason there is no such thing as a natural death, most natural deaths are because of organ failure. If elfs dont age like that (which is sugessted; that they remain fit until they die) then there is no reason they shouldn't be able to live forever, but most would obviously die at some point.

Caradryel, Bel-Korhandris and Bel-Hathor is the only phoenix kings who have died of old age.

The following statements are made of their death.

Caradryel was the first phoenix king to die peacefully in bed This doesn't go into why he died only that he wasn't killed.

Bel-Korhandis died just after the completion of the white tower Again no details, he might have fallen down a stair for all we know.

When Bel-Hathor died peacefully of old age... And neither does this, there is no such thing as a death of old age. Its possible it was organ failure but its been said other where that elves dont get weak before they die.

I think Alith Anar may be the same Alith Anar, kept alive by his pact with Koronus. Grombindal proved that there are some oaths that can defeat even death. But for the purpose of my fluff I'll just have him referred to as the shadow king and when asked the shadow warriors will simply refuse to answer. No point in going into any more detail than i need to.
I will however have a character who have lived since the sundering, until I get a firm confirmation from official sources that the guy in the 6th ed army book has been retconned, i will state that its possible though unlikely.

[Arnizipal]

Its possible it was organ failure but its been said other where that elves dont get weak before they die.

IIRC Elves are almost unaffected by old age.
This seems to imply they do get more frail as time goes on, it just takes a lot longer.

I think Alith Anar may be the same Alith Anar, kept alive by his pact with Koronus. Grombindal proved that there are some oaths that can defeat even death.

That seems to be something typically Dwarfen though (a fair number of famous Dwarfs have defied death by old age for quite some time through sheer willpower).