Cities of Ulthuan (and other high elf questions)

[woodster17]

Or... crazy thought here, GW are writers, not medical experts and therefore attribute death by old age to being death by old age and infirmity. I think we're all looking in to things a little too deeply here when examining in detail what 'dying of old age' could mean in this context. Also, given the fact that there have only been 11 phoenix kings, 3 deaths of natural causes is a reasonably high percentage given than the nation is almost constantly at war and the rulers are generally well versed at leading their troops in to battle.

[TheDungen]

Well we know nothing about how old those kings were when they ascended to the throne. And as stated we have an example of an elf who without magic have lived since the sundering. The guy telling the history of the high elves in the 6th ed army book. pages 50-53 he states outright he was one of the hunter who saved Imrik, he also states that he to this day carries the banner of the phoenix king. He also state that he has been alive for millenia. Which means atleast 2000 years.
its also stated tat Bel-Shanaar ruled for 1699 years and he wasnt exactly a child when he came to the throne.
Yet the general time the phoenix kings rule is 657 years. The general time the phoenix kings who died peacefully is 816.
Thats alot shorter than 2000 years. Ok they werent born when they rose to the phoenix crown but thruth to be told we know nothing at all of how old an elf can become cause the only three we know died peacefully could be born during the reign of the everqueen for all we know.

[Urgat]

When Bel-Hathor died peacefully of old age... And neither does this, there is no such thing as a death of old age. Its possible it was organ failure but its been said other where that elves dont get weak before they die.

What? He died of old age, means he died of old age. His internal clock stopped or whatever. He went to bed in the evening and didn't wake up the next morning. It's written verbatim, and you say "no!"?

[Athelassan]

I expect that the one example of a dude who's survived since the Sundering is an example of the writer wanting to make him awesomecool and not thinking through the implications of what he says.

Note that just because humans don't die of "old age" per se doesn't mean that elves don't.

[Židrek]

When Bel-Hathor died peacefully of old age... And neither does this, there is no such thing as a death of old age. Its possible it was organ failure but its been said other where that elves dont get weak before they die.

What? He died of old age, means he died of old age. His internal clock stopped or whatever. He went to bed in the evening and didn't wake up the next morning. It's written verbatim, and you say "no!"?

Guess he wanted a complete autopsy report on the death of every Phoenix King.

[TheDungen]

sure its possible elves die of old age but humans certainly do not. If nothing goes wrong with human we could basically live forever, the problem is that out version of metabolism produce a by product often referred to as free radicals, single oxygen atoms (as opposed to the more stable O2 molecule), these are highly reactive and while most of them are taken care of by our immune system enough of them get through to in the long run wear out our organs.

Now there are reasons for elven longevity we can discount, the main reason for longevity in species in reality is simply slow metabolism, the elves do not possess the other traits that come with that however so id say its unlikely (though now that i think of it that probably why dwarves live long), in fact elves show signs of higher metabolism than humans (they move quicker, think quicker and seldom get fat). The reason must then either be in their ability to take care of free radicals or that they simply don't have the flaw that makes us produce them.


But that said ok elves will die of old age, but we have no idea of what age that is since none of the elves we know to have died of age do we have any idea when they were born. we know that Bel-Shanaar ruled close to 2k years, and that he was far from the only survivor of those who fought under Aenarion/Caledor during the end of his reign. Many whoa re said to have done so are also very active on the battlefields during the sundering, showing they don't seem to be getting weak or frail (in fact the only one that's ever mentioned being old is Bel-Shanaar himself). I'd say we can assume the elves average lifespan is well over 2000 years from this. (and that Bel-Shanaar was one of the oldest of the surviving followers of Aenarion, which makes sense since they'd probably pick the oldest and wisest one) Quite how long it is is impossible to say without further information.

[Athelassan]

I suspect a lot of what keeps the elves alive is "magic". That makes me wonder if the vortex is actually killing them, draining away the magic that gives them vitality. The longevity of the elves thus decreases with each generation. Or perhaps it's the other way round, and the elves act as magical repositories, which in turn ages them. As the vortex gets progressively weaker the elves are exposed to more magical energy, which shortens their lifespan. The rituals which sustain Morathi and Hellebron (and Malekith?) while still involving "dark magic", might actually be "burning off" magical energy, rather than infusing them with it, or perhaps they're infusing themselves with dhar to balance out the qhaysh which is killing them. It might be possible for an elf to survive for millennia if they spend much of their time around the vortex standing stones and leylines which bleed off their magical energy and keep them alive, but otherwise they'll burn out within a few hundred years.

Which is not to say I don't agree with this:

Or... crazy thought here, GW are writers, not medical experts and therefore attribute death by old age to being death by old age and infirmity.

[Arnizipal]

sure its possible elves die of old age but humans certainly do not. If nothing goes wrong with human we could basically live forever, the problem is that out version of metabolism produce a by product often referred to as free radicals, single oxygen atoms (as opposed to the more stable O2 molecule), these are highly reactive and while most of them are taken care of by our immune system enough of them get through to in the long run wear out our organs.

Every time you bring science into a discussion about fantasy God kills a kitten.
Please, think of the kittens...

Seriously though, "died of old age" is an expression that is/was used a lot to indicate a person dying of typical illnesses that befall the older members of society (heart problems, stroke, ...).

I'd say we can assume the elves average lifespan is well over 2000 years from this. (and that Bel-Shanaar was one of the oldest of the surviving followers of Aenarion, which makes sense since they'd probably pick the oldest and wisest one) Quite how long it is is impossible to say without further information.

Agreed.

[Athelassan]

Oh, one other thing I think worth mentioning is that this dude who's supposedly survived since the time of Caledor I in the 6th ed book - there's no guarantee that he's still alive. In that book he describes the Sundering and Malekith's defeat, then mentions that "the Witch King is abroad once more". That doesn't have to be the present; it could refer to any other Dark Elf invasion since the Sundering, such as the one at the end of the War of the Beard, about 1200 years after the attempt on Imrik's life.

[McBoner]

sure its possible elves die of old age but humans certainly do not. If nothing goes wrong with human we could basically live forever, the problem is that out version of metabolism produce a by product often referred to as free radicals, single oxygen atoms (as opposed to the more stable O2 molecule), these are highly reactive and while most of them are taken care of by our immune system enough of them get through to in the long run wear out our organs.

Now there are reasons for elven longevity we can discount, the main reason for longevity in species in reality is simply slow metabolism, the elves do not possess the other traits that come with that however so id say its unlikely (though now that i think of it that probably why dwarves live long), in fact elves show signs of higher metabolism than humans (they move quicker, think quicker and seldom get fat). The reason must then either be in their ability to take care of free radicals or that they simply don't have the flaw that makes us produce them.

Bloody hell. This is painful for two reasons. Number one, we're talking about a race of fantasy Elves; science kind of takes a back seat as soon as you introduce magical daemons, the walking dead and spellcasters who can transform into chimeras to a setting.

Secondly, you're wrong. The free radical theory of ageing has been largely disproven. Free radical damage as the main cause of ageing across species just doesn't hold up anymore. Historically, dying of old age referred to things like age-related cancer and cardiovascular disease before modern science fully understood the biology behind such diseases. Seeing as GW doesn't put much effort into defining pathologies that effect denizens of the Warhammer World, we can assume that "dying of old age" simply means organ failure of something like that.

[Urgat]

Besides, elves do get old and are affected by it. The whole point of bathing in blood for Dark Elf sorceresses is to get back a bit of youth. Read Helebron's fluff... See how age doesn't affect her...

[TheDungen]

Bloody hell. This is painful for two reasons. Number one, we're talking about a race of fantasy Elves; science kind of takes a back seat as soon as you introduce magical daemons, the walking dead and spellcasters who can transform into chimeras to a setting.

Secondly, you're wrong. The free radical theory of ageing has been largely disproven. Free radical damage as the main cause of ageing across species just doesn't hold up anymore. Historically, dying of old age referred to things like age-related cancer and cardiovascular disease before modern science fully understood the biology behind such diseases. Seeing as GW doesn't put much effort into defining pathologies that effect denizens of the Warhammer World, we can assume that "dying of old age" simply means organ failure of something like that.

Then how come species with low metabolism like lets say sea turtles (500 years) live much longer than species with high metabolism lets say fruit flies (a matter of hours).
All mamal comparison would be elephants and squirrels i guess.

Oh, one other thing I think worth mentioning is that this dude who's supposedly survived since the time of Caledor I in the 6th ed book - there's no guarantee that he's still alive. In that book he describes the Sundering and Malekith's defeat, then mentions that "the Witch King is abroad once more". That doesn't have to be the present; it could refer to any other Dark Elf invasion since the Sundering, such as the one at the end of the War of the Beard, about 1200 years after the attempt on Imrik's life.

He still claims to have lived millennia which means at least 2000 years. he's born during the reign of Bel-shanaar (and late in it since he kills his lion soon after Bel-Shanaar died). if we fast forward 2000 years then we end up in the reign of Bel-Korhandis and the witch king certainly isnt at large then(It could be durign the reign of Tethlis too but The witch king never set foot on Ulthuan during the time of Tethlis either, the High Elves attacked the dark evles). He could be older than 2000 though and be referring to the next the the witch king is at large. Which would be during the reign of Morvael another 2 thousand years later. And evne then Morvael attacked Naggaroth not the other way around. The witch king reclaims anlec though after Morvaels defeat. If its not this time he's refering to the next time is the great war against chaos during the reign of Finubar. which is 500 years ago.The witch king havent really attacked Ulthuan in force that many times. (which also makes me wonder why the High elf population is declining, they've been attacked seriously 3 times in what 6 thousand years?

[Athelassan]

He could have lived for eight hundred years, killed his lion when Bel Shanaar died, then survived both Caledors and died at the age of 2000 and a bit in the age of Caradryel.

Or he could have lived for 1500 years and called that "millennia" as in "one and a half millennia".

While I'm here, it's worth mentioning that the wars under Caradryel, Aethis and Tethlis weren't "some Dark Elves turn up, raid a town and go home". They occupied large areas of the north of Ulthuan and established settlements intended to be permanent. Tethlis attacked the Dark Elves on Ulthuan. The Dark Elves who pitched up in -1599 weren't driven out until -696. They turned up again in 1125 and stuck around until at least 1502.

Notwithstanding Arniizipal's and McBoner's very valid points on the biological issue (it's irrelevant) it escapes me what the relevance of metabolism to the free radical theory of aging is. Also, a few minutes of research on the issue on wikipedia hasn't convinced me that free radicals are the cause of aging or even that it's a generally accepted theory.

[woodster17]

Besides, elves do get old and are affected by it. The whole point of bathing in blood for Dark Elf sorceresses is to get back a bit of youth. Read Helebron's fluff... See how age doesn't affect her...

Forgot about that, nice one Urgat. Yeah I think Dungen is trying to read WAY too much in to this. When GW said 'died of old age' that's exactly what they meant, even if it's not 100% accurate medically. Elves clearly do die of old age, although in some fantasy settings are immortal (LOTR have the jewels of course) but in WFB we can safely assume that if they live long enough, they will die.

[TheDungen]

Yeah i can see i'm being overulled here i'll just have to invent some other means my shadow warrior hero can have lived since the sundering. Maybe some dark pact or something seems fitting enough, or maybe he learned the runes that keeps Grombindal from leaving the world from the dwarfs before the war of the beard broke out. Or maybee same thing as the dakr elf sorcerrors in the sundering trilogy, leech life from enemies using magic. as long as they deserve to die it could be a shadow warrior thing (though i guess the other high elves would be very unimpressed).


oh and does any other source but the sundering trilogy state outright that Urathion of Ullar was killed for betraying Malekith? oh and is it possible to survive a crossbow bolt to the back?

[The bearded one]

or maybe he learned the runes that keeps Grombindal from leaving the world from the dwarfs before the war of the beard broke out.

Of dwarfs such as Grombindal and ancient runelords like Kragg the grim it is noted that they are "too stubborn to die", as though they still felt like they had to do something before dying. Gotrek Starbreaker, the king during the war of vengeance (no, I shan't call it the war of the beard, damnable elflings!) , lived for many centuries, untill he died a little while after the war.

[TheDungen]

The something to do before they die i have, i also plan on killing of the character in question (the only reason ever to include an overpowered character in a story is to kill him of to show exactly how great the threat the real hero is facing)

[The bearded one]

(the only reason ever to include an overpowered character in a story is to kill him of to show exactly how great the threat the real hero is facing)

Or alternatively to make the overpowered character look super keeeeeeewwwlll * cough * draigo * sputter, cough *

[Iverald]

I'm not quite sure if that was a hyperbole, but didn't the HE 6th ed. armybook state

"We are everliving, our spirit is immortal, and long after the last of our people crumbles to dust we shall still live on. For we are the Asur and for as long as there is light then we will shine."

?


As for witch elf ageing, I always thought that it had something to do with falling from Asuryan's grace, but that is my personal conjecture.

@The Dungen: Alternatively you can exploit the history of Eltharion the Blind and the way how he was able to return form the brink of death and later to overcome his injuries and loss of sight through sheer willpower.

[Athelassan]

oh and does any other source but the sundering trilogy state outright that Urathion of Ullar was killed for betraying Malekith? oh and is it possible to survive a crossbow bolt to the back?

I doubt Urathion is mentioned in any other source. It is totally possible to survive a crossbow bolt to the back (or chest) depending on where it hits you and if/how soon it's treated. If it misses major organs, you'll probably be fine so long as you can stop the bleeding. If it hits a relatively unimportant organ and you get competent treatment (and don't get gangrene/etc.) you'll probably be pretty much fine. If it skewers your heart, you're pretty much finished. And so on.

@The Dungen: Alternatively you can exploit the history of Eltharion the Blind and the way how he was able to return form the brink of death and later to overcome his injuries and loss of sight through sheer willpower.

Good lord that background was awful. Hasn't it been retconned, though? The latest edition of Eltharion had him back to his old self - Warden of Tor Yvresse, riding Stormfang. Rather than Daredevil the Swordmaster.