Cities of Ulthuan (and other high elf questions)

[Francis]

The 5th edition Elf codex implies that elves live as long as they feel like.

As does the 6th edition armybook to some extent, this is also how I interpret Alith Anar. As elves grow older the whispers of Morai-Heg grows stronger until the elf, tired of the world, give in to her. This can happen at the age of 500 or 10 000, but generally I would doubt that many elves live beyond two millennia.

Loremaster Belannaer was considered to be young when he first entered the White Tower during the rule of Bel-Hator now he is looked upon as rather old. Since we know from the 6th edition Dark elf book that 100 years of age is around the time that high elves join the militia, and that this is considered to be very young, we can expect Belannaer to have been at least 300 at the time he entered the Tower (considering that fact that he, being a prince, probably served a couple of centuries in the Silver Helms). This puts Belannaers age at everything from around 1350 to ca. 650. I would guess that Belannaer still have a few centuries left in him, he certainly does not seem to fade in any of the fluff we are served. If pressed I would say that elves probably live from ca 1000-2000 years but some are capable of living considerably longer if they feel they have a reason to do so.

[TheDungen]

Which is why the with elves age, they corrupt their bodies and minds with the rituals they perform. The evil they do wear down their spirit. I like it.

[Urgat]

Excepted nothing says that, it's guesswork, because High elves die of old age too. The reason may be psychological instead of physiological, but elves do age, that's what it boils down to. They still die of old age, so same difference.
Got another example, by the way (in the 5th ed HE book), Eltharion's father, Moranion, the one who gets nailed to Grom's chariot, is described as old and... old and old and old. I don't think he's referred more than twice as anything other than 'the old elf". And obviously age didn't do wonders on him, Grom drops him without even using his axe, he merely punches him. Not too impressive for a HE lord.

[TheDungen]

Well 5th edition army book says that. And it seems more elvish to me than regular ageing.

[Urgat]

I mean nothing says dark elves age any faster because they use dark magic or whatever. Besides you said "this is why witch elves age", as if HE didn't age (or even other DE for that matter), and you say it yourself, the 5th ed book says they do age, whatever the reason. Remember, the discussion was whether elves age and get old at all, and they clearly do, plenty of times where it is stated. So this is not why witch elves age, this is why every elf ages,and it's got nothing to do with whatever magic they practice. We do hear about one elf ritual regarding age, and it's the opposite, it's the blood ritual to get younger. From what we know, practicing dark magic might be the only way to slow aging for elves, actually, quite the opposite of what you were saying.

[TheDungen]

Yeah but the sundering states the only outward signs of age an high elf shows are a few lines in the face the witch elves show much more than that

[Urgat]

I understand it's not the only thing that is contradicting regular fluff in The Sundering, but fine, let's accept for a second that this book is different from the other BL books and that GW cares about what's written in it at all. Even if it's a few lines on the face, how do you call that, if not signs of aging? If they don't age, there should be no lines at all. Every example you bring goes against your argument, you know For now we got at least 3 proofs that elves do age, and zero that they don't. I'm not sure why you're insisting anymore...
To the questions "do elves age?", the answer is definitely "yes" (ex: Moranion, witch elves, sorceresses, the example you just provided). To the question "do elves die of old age?", the answer is definitely "yes" too (that phoenix king).

[Eldred91]

Bear in mind that the Elves at the time of the Sundering are unlikely to actually be that old comparatively. Its less than 3000 years from the collapse of the Gates to the actual Sundering. While the elves were created earlier than that we don't know how long exactly and it is reasonable to believe that the particularly old probably made easier targets for the Daemons. As such it seems believable that during the period of the Sundering the most advanced sign of ageing shown by the Elves could be a few lines on the face. However seeing as Hellebron and any other surviving elves from the Sundering are at least 6000 years old its quite reasonable for them to display much more advanced signs of ageing.

In a similar way to how the Space Marines in the HH series believe they are immortal because none have lived long enough to die of old age.

[TheDungen]

Isnt that true in the 41th millenium as well? i've never heard of a space marine dying of old age, and the chaos space marines are still alive, ok thats because of the warp time distortion thingie (mcguffin anyone?) but anyway, well that offtopic.

The difference is that one allows alith anar to be Alith anar the other does not. If he is then other who have bound themselves to specific task in the same way.

I have a character imagined that's a former raven herald who murdered a (large) number of nobles during the Sundering believing them to be part of the cult of pleasure, then realises they were not and has made wow to save the life of one of their line for each murder he committed. By now he's down to his last save before being allowed to die. With the cant get older than a certain age I have to bring magic into the picture.

Not that it really matters, i could easily have the shadow weavers do some terrible ritual that involves sacrificing druchii for them to contribute the additional life time he needs to complete his task. I'm mostly interested in which one you folks seems to think is the best.



Also do you think murder happens as part of elven politics after the sundering? I mean a high elf would never murder for personal gain but for the good of the realm?

[Francis]

Also do you think murder happens as part of elven politics after the sundering? I mean a high elf would never murder for personal gain but for the good of the realm?

I see no reason why one should assume that the helfs don't murder for personal or dynastic gains. The political maneuvering in Lothern is intense and we know from blood of Aenarion that elven nobles often fight duels to the death. We also learn that most noble houses are very well protected against infiltrators (and I don't think DE infiltrators are prominent enough on Ulthuan to warrant such levels of protection).

[Urgat]

The 6th ed HE book with the whole "intrigue at the court" thing, gave the HE a pretty devious mind, actually. I don't put it past HE to do just that. Remember that DE exist exactly because HE can do just that, in fact

[The bearded one]

Even if it's a few lines on the face, how do you call that, if not signs of aging?

Laughterlines..?

[TheDungen]

Hmm fair points. So they duel to death? do they duel to first blood too? and joust? I mean they have to spar or they wouldn't be as good as they are (rhyming not intended) but do they make public affair out of it, competition?

Oh and do you think its possible/common for high elves that have a hard time fitting into the high elf society to defect to the dark elves and vice versa? I could see Shadow warrior who give in to their inherent blood lust doing that, but would they be welcome amongst the dark elves? As welcome as anyone ever is meaning they stay alive if they watch their back. Or would they be executed on sight cause they're born asur?

[Eldred91]

Isnt that true in the 41th millenium as well? i've never heard of a space marine dying of old age, and the chaos space marines are still alive, ok thats because of the warp time distortion thingie (mcguffin anyone?) but anyway, well that offtopic.

The difference is that one allows alith anar to be Alith anar the other does not. If he is then other who have bound themselves to specific task in the same way.

I have a character imagined that's a former raven herald who murdered a (large) number of nobles during the Sundering believing them to be part of the cult of pleasure, then realises they were not and has made wow to save the life of one of their line for each murder he committed. By now he's down to his last save before being allowed to die. With the cant get older than a certain age I have to bring magic into the picture.

Not that it really matters, i could easily have the shadow weavers do some terrible ritual that involves sacrificing druchii for them to contribute the additional life time he needs to complete his task. I'm mostly interested in which one you folks seems to think is the best.



Also do you think murder happens as part of elven politics after the sundering? I mean a high elf would never murder for personal gain but for the good of the realm?

Alith Anar isn't exactly a normal elf, he seems to be a champion of both Kurnos and Lilearth, so he could still be alive even if your average elf can die of old age. As for your character, how about his vow was an oath sworn to Morai-Heg and she won't let him die before completing it.

[Urgat]

Hmm fair points. So they duel to death? do they duel to first blood too? and joust? I mean they have to spar or they wouldn't be as good as they are (rhyming not intended) but do they make public affair out of it, competition?

Mmh, well, in the old Bretonnian/Wood Elf campaign supplement (don't remember the name, The Perilous Lance iirc), there's wood elf "knights" participating in some jousting, but I honestly don't think there's any way that can be cannon anymore, but it's at least been possible before, maybe it's still true for HE.

For the other question, don't know, I think there's a recent topic about that though.

[TheDungen]

I always imagined the dark elfs having gladitorial games, you have slaves and monsters and are a race who likes bloodlust, lets make a game of which monster kills the most slaves in the least amount of time.


I could see the high elves doing something a bit more noble, they dont want to give in to the bloodlust inspired by Khaine after all thats a druchii thing.

[Urgat]

I always imagined the dark elfs having gladitorial games, you have slaves and monsters and are a race who likes bloodlust, lets make a game of which monster kills the most slaves in the least amount of time.

So do I, but I don't see any DE going down there himself, unless he's a prisoner himself.

[TheDungen]

Fame wealth status and glory? Take into account that dark elves are pretty over confident when it comes to their own martial ability. And most romans who became gladiators sold themselves to slavery to pay of debts, in naggaroth that would be the choice between the arena or being killed at the spot.

[Urgat]

I see them as too proud to engage in such degrading activities. They might be dark Elves, but, first and foremost, they remain Elves. I can't see a DE gaining much fame by purposely wanting to brawl with inferior beings in a dirt arena. But, well, it's just my opinion and it's not any better than yours there. I suppose that depending on the elf, both options are possible, actually.

[TheDungen]

well since their main god is the god of war and murder so i always figured that martial provess was a important value in their culture, but dark elves isnt my area really.

On another topic what are the three shield iicons included in the high elf spearmen set. Just random symbols?