How to Make Chaos Lords Playable

[Gradek]

Being primarily a Warriors of Chaos player, it makes me somewhat sad that the competitive choice for a lord in most normal sized games automatically defaults to the sorcerer lord, as they are simply a better use of points given 8th edition rules and the relative weakness (in terms of what it can bring back in points) of the chaos lord. Seeing that Warriors may be up for a new book late this year (hopefully), I thought I would throw out my suggestions to make chaos lords a much more attractive alternative to the sorcerer lord (since with chaos it is unlikely that you will be able to fit both into a normal sized game). In trying to keep with the fluff of chaos lords being destructive masters of combat with little regard for their own lives I have come up with the following:

Chaos Lord (base) - 220 points
added abilities: unbreakable (only applies to the lord himself and is not transferred to the unit he is in (ie they can lose combat and flee, but he remains)), combat lord (for every hit that wounds, the lord gets to make another to hit roll)

Marks:
Khorne - Heroic Killing Blow (+40 points)
Nurgle - either regeneration OR +1T and +1W (+40 points)
Slaanesh - ASF and +1L (+35 points)
Tzeench - either a 4+ ward save (with no ability to improve it) or level 2 tzeench caster (+45 or 50 points)

I think these changes would make the chaos lords a more playable choice without breaking them entirely in terms of power and would then directly reduce the amount of chaos armies led by sorcerer lords (which I think would be a good thing).

[TheOneHawk]

The problem isn't with the Chaos armybook, it's with the 8th edition magic rules. Chaos lords can be insanely killy. Sorc Lords are just that much better, and we can't afford both until like 3k.

[Akkaryn]

I run a lord from time to time. Using only a level 2.

It doesn't matter how killly you make a lord. They will never be able to delete units with the same ease as gateway/purple sun/treason or the plethora of other spells out there.

I would prefer it if melee heroes brought something else to the table (like waaaagh or hold the line) I think this idea would allow a more feasible use of the combat lord.

[TheOneHawk]

I still believe a Lord has a higher potential damage than a Mage, but you have to pay for it. A mage can do a lot for not a lot of points, ~400 for a kitted mage. In order to have them about even, maybe slightly higher damage for the Lord, you have to spend approaching 800. Even then, the Mage's defensive magic bonus and ability to not get cannon sniped as easily make the Mage an overall better choice, for half the price.

[McBoner]

If current trends are anything to go by, GW realise there's a problem with non-spell casting characters and are coming up with novel ways to address the issue. Take Empire for example, their "combat" characters are still weak but their unique abilities to boost the troops they lead make them a must-have in this edition. Rather than a stats boost for WoC characters, I'd expect something similar.

[Holy_Combat]

I run a level two vampire lord in my 2k list. However I tooled her up for combat. The main focus is the quickblood and red fury vampire powers to get always strike first 99% of the time and to additional attacks per kill. Top it off with the sword of blood shed for 3 more attacks. I am getting the potential of 16 re rollable to hit attacks on rnf troops and she can demolish units on her own.

[IcedCrow]

I have been playing solidly since 8th ed's release. I have never once used a level 4. I always use my chaos lord. And at times mount him on a flying beast.

He has torn through quite a bit. He has done quite well for me. It's not as easy as he can't just nuke a unit off the table, but the damage potential and carnage he has created have helped me win plenty of games.

Using the proper terrain rules and scenarios also helps quite a bit as he can't be targeted by everything under the sun.

I go into it knowing he won't be able to easily delete a unit like mages can, but then I see that as "easy mode" vs "difficult mode" and keep that mindset going into it, and as such it has worked quite well for me.

As such I already find them quite playable. Just not as easy to use as the alternative. That doesn't make them UNplayable, that makes it where they are difficult to use.

However the look on peoples' face when you show up with one and they gloat over their soon-to-be easy win (what you took a chaos lord? HAR HAR HAR YOU NEWB THEY ARE AWFUL) and then watch that vanish when they get beat is more than priceless.

Used as support on the monster or as an infantry enhancer in the front rank or as a cav enhancer on the front rank, they are quite evil.

[BigbyWolf]

How to make them playable?

Pick one from the book, kit him out, put him on board and roll dice.

Anything else would be more suited to the wishlisting thread or rules development forum.

Chaos Lords are fine.

[IcedCrow]

Also so long as there are #6 spells capable of potentially wiping out an entire unit and so long as people continue to horde up into death stars where 75% of their army is in that unit, people will continue to stick with level 4 wizards capable of winning the game in one spell.

[decker_cky]

Drop them by 50 pts.

Also, reverse the standard of discipline FAQ.

[pointyteeth]

I wouldn't say they are unplayable, they are just difficult to use. I occasionally run with a Chaos Lord of Tzeentch on a disc with Hellfire Sword and Golden eye. He isn't there to lead the army he's there to run ahead and decimate big gribblies and war machines and once thats done, support.

[Djekar]

Either drop his Leadership or give the Sorcerer Lord/ Daemon Prince LD 9 as well. My big problem is that if I take one, I want him riding/flying around doing crazy stuff and then the rest of my army is bereft of the general's leadership. Not that it's a big deal with warriors/knights, but my warhounds, marauders, trolls and ogres mind. Hell, even my normal troops want a piece of that LD 9 pie sometimes.

[TheOneHawk]

Djekar, I have to say, what the **** are you smoking right now. You're saying that the way to fix the clearly weaker choice, is to either make it weaker, or make the other one stronger. Yes, I understand that sometimes you don't want the lord to be the general, but Ld9 is one of his very few selling points. He needs to be more useful, not less.

[The Low King]

Either drop his Leadership or give the Sorcerer Lord/ Daemon Prince LD 9 as well. My big problem is that if I take one, I want him riding/flying around doing crazy stuff and then the rest of my army is bereft of the general's leadership. Not that it's a big deal with warriors/knights, but my warhounds, marauders, trolls and ogres mind. Hell, even my normal troops want a piece of that LD 9 pie sometimes.

Lol, most people want the opposite, they want to keep Sourcerer's LD low so that the Lord is worth taking for his leadership.

[blackcherry]

You could roll the sorcerer and chaos lord into one profile. Have him a lot cheaper and just make him pay for levels till he costs a lot to be a level 4, but a level 4 combat monster.

For the most part though, he does his job. Its just that using sorcerers is easier for a lot of players, with more chance they can earn their points back from multiple phases, rather than just relying on combat.

[xxRavenxx]

I think Bigbywolf said it well:

He IS playable. What he isn't is the optimum. And to make him the optimum would cause magic users to scream out that the wizards are being outclassed by the combat monster the lord hath become.

That said, if something were to be done, I'd say drop sorcerers statline so they get only two strength 4 attacks, and no shield/weapon access. Hell, strip their armor too if need be. Make them a standard wizard from another army. They have no business fighting :P

On a related note, I'm always surprised that wizards can loot the armoury for weapons. You'd think non wizards would tell them to sod off because they have their precious talismans all to themselves. Why should Chaos lord punchyface share his flaming sword if High sorcerer zappystick won't share his magic book? :P

[IcedCrow]

I think Bigbywolf said it well:

He IS playable. What he isn't is the optimum. And to make him the optimum would cause magic users to scream out that the wizards are being outclassed by the combat monster the lord hath become.

That said, if something were to be done, I'd say drop sorcerers statline so they get only two strength 4 attacks, and no shield/weapon access. Hell, strip their armor too if need be. Make them a standard wizard from another army. They have no business fighting :P

On a related note, I'm always surprised that wizards can loot the armoury for weapons. You'd think non wizards would tell them to sod off because they have their precious talismans all to themselves. Why should Chaos lord punchyface share his flaming sword if High sorcerer zappystick won't share his magic book? :P

Yes. And sadly many go with what is "the most optimal". But as you pointed out if chaos lords were more optimal, than the pendulum swings to that end with wizards not being taken much anymore. I think with magic being what it is in this edition, you aren't going to see many fighty lords due to people gunning for #6 spell and IF and winning the game with the spell being cast on the opponent's death star.

[TheOneHawk]

Because High sorcerer zappystick probably took it from Chaos lord stabbydeath post mortem. What makes less sense is Empire wizards and such having shiny magic weapons, but they rarely do.

Chaos Sorcerers should remain combat capable, to be sure. It's one of the things that sets the army apart.

[Jericho]

For 40 pts you can make a Chaos Lord a wizard with two spells and +1PD... as an added bonus, he is even more killy as he tends to spawn 5" S10 templates randomly

Seriously though, I have run with Chaos Lord and Sorc Lord, both are decent. If you're not playing in an environment where every single army list is the most offensive thing you've ever seen, then you will be fine.

I like Pointyteeth's idea as well, having a disc rider who can smash monsters with ease sounds like a plan to me. As the majority of your army is moving forward to smash face, it's not like they always get left behind... they'll catch up eventually unless something goes horribly wrong

[Gradek]

I think the suggestions I laid out in the initial post would change the decision criteria to being at least 50-50 depending on what kind of army you wanted to play. I don't think what I suggested would make the lords overpowered, but would make them somewhat more on par with a sorcerer lord in terms of choosing which to take (and stay within the fluff). Right now, chaos sorcerers rule, but that is mostly because the lords just aren't all that good (in a point for point comparison).