End of the Gav's Lion

[Prodigalson]

So... this week I finally got around to finishing The Lion by Gav. Great little novella, very interested in where it is going now.

I had some questions and wanted to see what other people that read the last few pages thought.

So he has a conversation with what appears to be a Watcher in the Dark at the end of the novella. I had read another poster in another article that thought it was the entity they picked up earlier, but I don't think it was. The being The Lion was speaking to appeared to be speaking telepathically, and the other thing did not. Also it specifically stated that it was stowed in the storage area.

So, first, was it a Watcher in the Dark, and if so, was it the same creature(s) that talked to Zaheriel?

Next, doesn't appear that he knows what is happening on Caliban? He appears to be warned and is willing to sacrifice the Legion if necessary to keep the imperium together, or at least make sure no one but the Emperor sits at it's head.

I had thought that the Watcher was a member of the Cabal, but now I'm not so sure. What did you guys think?

[Navigator19]

That's an interesting little thought, that last bit about the Watcher being in the Cabal. Falls directly into the bin marked "Could Be/Couldn't Be". However, as I understand it, the Watchers in the Dark are some sort of species, possibly Warp based, that only inhabit Caliban. Having one appear from beyond Caliban suggests that 1) they are Warp based (especially when you consider Caliban's high saturation of Warp beasts) and 2) they do have an agenda beyond just Caliban.

Old DA codex fluff (and the two Dark Angels Horus Heresy books 'Descent of Angels' and 'Fallen Angels') both suggest that the Watchers were more of a myth/legend of Caliban and that they didn't really exist. So, I don't think they're a member of the Cabal, but rather some kind of manifestation of the Warp that isn't Chaos, possibly some kind of neutral-aligned warp species.

[Apfeljunge]

How do the DA HH Books gave you the impression that the watchers were only a myth? Zahariel talks to them in both novels.
On topic: I also thought they may be part of the cabal because they described themselves as part of a cabal that fights chaos.
They also said chaos would exist as long as humans do. Too similar to the cabal from Legion to be a coincidence, I think.

[Saboreth]

Where do I find a copy of the Lion? Is it on Amazon anywhere?

[stormblade]

Where do I find a copy of the Lion? Is it on Amazon anywhere?

It's part of 'The Primarchs' collection.

[narrativium]

It's also available as a tale in three parts, in Hammer & Bolter issues 17-19.

[shadowhawk2008]

Where do I find a copy of the Lion? Is it on Amazon anywhere?

Here's where:
Print/Digital/Unabridged audio copy of The Primarchs anthology.
Serialized in three parts in Hammer & Bolter 17-19 (eBooks).
Separate eBook.
Audio mp3.

[Prodigalson]

They seem to both part of e Cabal, but their goals are a mystery. In Legion the cabal says they spoke to the lion, but that he wouldn't be of any help. Yet, the Lion is working with aliens, but seems dead set on making sure that the emperor stays on the throne, or no one.

[Kiro]

IIRC, in Legion isn't it mentioned that the Cabal had previously attempted to get the Dark Angels on side?...

[Nineswords]

However, as I understand it, the Watchers in the Dark are some sort of species, possibly Warp based, that only inhabit Caliban. Having one appear from beyond Caliban suggests that 1) they are Warp based (especially when you consider Caliban's high saturation of Warp beasts) and 2) they do have an agenda beyond just Caliban.

- Jawas. From a galaxy far, far away

[Kaika87]

I really enjoyed the Lion, definitely was a lot better than "Reflection Crack'd" or "Feat of Iron." That said, I wasn't too happy with

the casual treatment given to the death of Nemiel. For a character who was such a major part of two books to just be killed like that for almost no good reason? I mean the Lion didn't even show any real remorse for killing someone who was, ostensibly, part of his inner circle.

[Son of Sanguinius]

I try to judge the story along the measuring stick it was intended for - to show the labyrinth of Lion's mind. I think it accomplished this, and added the cute wrinkle of showing contact with the Watchers.

It's not a mind blowing piece, and I don't think it was intended too, but both are regrettable because it could have been. Still though, I think Gav wanted to counter (amicably, I assume) the more noble portrayal of Lion in Savage Weapons, and he did so.

I've said in the past that Lion is one of the more multi-faceted characters, and I think this novella supports this. I believe Lion possesses Roboute's mind for strategy, Rogal's desire to appear noble, Konrad's paranoia, Horus' confidence, and Perturabo's single-minded cold fury, and it actually fits quite well with the 40k portrayal of the Dark Angels. Forgive the phrasing, but 30k Dark Angels are trying to be Ultramarines - paragons of the Astartes ideal. 40k Dark Angels are the secretive, ruthless, almost manic chapter and we see the potential for this in the portrayals of the Lion.

Lion grew up learning to trust no one, because everyone had secrets. After the Heresy, his Legion learns the same lesson and perhaps more thoroughly embodies his essence.

[shadowhawk2008]

I really enjoyed the Lion, definitely was a lot better than "Reflection Crack'd" or "Feat of Iron." That said, I wasn't too happy with

the casual treatment given to the death of Nemiel. For a character who was such a major part of two books to just be killed like that for almost no good reason? I mean the Lion didn't even show any real remorse for killing someone who was, ostensibly, part of his inner circle.

Which is the point. Characters that you think will be "safe" aren't really safe and certain character arcs aren't going to pan out the way we think they will. The "big" names will survive but the characters introduced by the writers aren't on safe ground at all.

[DietDolphin]

Which is the point. Characters that you think will be "safe" aren't really safe and certain character arcs aren't going to pan out the way we think they will. The "big" names will survive but the characters introduced by the writers aren't on safe ground at all.

Kaika isn't bothered by the fact he died, it's how it was done so casually. IE the way it was written.

A major character can die in a very regular/uneventful manor as long as it's written well, and ideally we get to see the effect of their death on the murderer/others. It feels odd when a character just 'disappears' from the story and no-one really is bothered by it (unless it's part of their character).

[Son of Sanguinius]

I think what Gav may have been trying to convey is three-fold.

First, the chaplains are very much treated as outside entities in the 30k literature. They are, at that point in the background, essentially fanatical witch hunters, and those tend to not be received well.

Second, the ship is under demonic assault and the Lion announces that he plans to unleash weapons that can save everyone. The crew is already used to obeying the Lion instantly, and so them blocking out or rationalizing Nemiel's death can be understood as part self-preservation instinct, part comfort with the chain of command.

Third, the Lion, once convinced of a course of action, will do anything to win. ANYTHING. Like Kharn says, "you must always be willing to go further than your opponent". He won't think twice about killing a Dark Angel who stands in the way of victory.

I too would have liked to see maybe just a paragraph or two from Corstwain's or even Lion's perspective to show this reasoning, but it's not impossible to infer without being told about it.

[stormblade]

Which is the point. Characters that you think will be "safe" aren't really safe and certain character arcs aren't going to pan out the way we think they will. The "big" names will survive but the characters introduced by the writers aren't on safe ground at all.

So it's kind of annoying when they throw the 'big' characters in perilous situation, we know they'll live, what's the point?

ex. Magnus in ATS

when attacked by the eldar titans

Or when they insist on showing Erebus and Lucius time and again, I keep waiting for them to be brutally murdered even though I know it will never happen. It makes thinges more frustrating than enjoyable.

Anyway, sorry for the off topic rant.

[shadowhawk2008]

So it's kind of annoying when they throw the 'big' characters in perilous situation, we know they'll live, what's the point?

ex. Magnus in ATS

when attacked by the eldar titans

Or when they insist on showing Erebus and Lucius time and again, I keep waiting for them to be brutally murdered even though I know it will never happen. It makes thinges more frustrating than enjoyable.

Anyway, sorry for the off topic rant.

Knowing off the bat that they'll survive is different than actually experiencing them go through the tough situations. We know that Lorgar survives the Heresy but I can honestly say that I felt a lot of trepidation in TFH when he went against Corax on Istvaan. The danger to him was real and THAT is what matters for the "big" characters. The sense of danger was still there.

As for Magnus and the Eldar Titans. They never came off as a credible threat to me.

[Orthodox]

So it's kind of annoying when they throw the 'big' characters in perilous situation, we know they'll live, what's the point?

ex. Magnus in ATS

when attacked by the eldar titans

Or when they insist on showing Erebus and Lucius time and again, I keep waiting for them to be brutally murdered even though I know it will never happen. It makes thinges more frustrating than enjoyable.

Anyway, sorry for the off topic rant.

The primarchs and special characters aren't real characters, for this kind of reason. They are symbols, paragons, placeholders, cyphers, but dramatically they don't mean anything. I only read books that use them as supporting characters.

Knowing off the bat that they'll survive is different than actually experiencing them go through the tough situations. We know that Lorgar survives the Heresy but I can honestly say that I felt a lot of trepidation in TFH when he went against Corax on Istvaan. The danger to him was real and THAT is what matters for the "big" characters. The sense of danger was still there.

Antoine de Saint Exupery knows that I am a terrible person and that you should have all my posts on ignore, as he indicates in a misappropriated quote.

...If you confronted Bergson with Attila, Attila would undoubtedly astound Bergson. As for Bergson, he could not possibly make any impression on Attila.

A drunken sailor makes more noise than a philosopher. And the SS man who, thumbs stuck in his belts, walks up and down beside a humiliated physicist as he bends over to clean the latrines likewise astounds the physicist.

Still, this idea of "actually experiencing" is melodramatic and its value is not apparent to me, without even coming to a question of taste or not.

[malika]

So it's kind of annoying when they throw the 'big' characters in perilous situation, we know they'll live, what's the point?

ex. Magnus in ATS

when attacked by the eldar titans

Or when they insist on showing Erebus and Lucius time and again, I keep waiting for them to be brutally murdered even though I know it will never happen. It makes thinges more frustrating than enjoyable.

Anyway, sorry for the off topic rant.

Hmm, but what about

Eidolon

?

[Kaika87]

Kaika isn't bothered by the fact he died, it's how it was done so casually. IE the way it was written.

A major character can die in a very regular/uneventful manor as long as it's written well, and ideally we get to see the effect of their death on the murderer/others. It feels odd when a character just 'disappears' from the story and no-one really is bothered by it (unless it's part of their character).

Exactly this. I'm perfectly fine with characters dying (hell, Game of Thrones is one of my favorite series currently), but I would have liked for such a major character's death to be treated with less nonchalance.