2 Preds or Pred and Vindicator

[spikeyjim]

Looking to get another tank to go with my auto/las pred. What would work better another auto/las pred or another configuration or a vindicator?

Cheers in advance, Spikyjim

[Enigma6]

It is often said that vindicators work best in pairs.

I use vindicators and find that the above is often true, so you may have more luck with a second pred than a single vindicator.

It does heavily depend on the rest of your army. Do you already have plenty of lascannons autocannons and missile launchers? Do you face death stars or other resiliant heavy infantry (driagowing to name one culprit)? If so a vindicator may be up your street.

Most people find that they can never have enough las/auto/miss and that vindicators are an acquired taste.

[spikeyjim]

Cheers Enigma,

That's what I was thinking really, 2 auto/las preds is something I need. I agree, you can never have too much las/auto. But the vindicator is just such a nice model, just a shame I can't afford it. Maybe when I win the lottery!

[stereynolds]

I'd go with the second predator. If you were blood angels with their silly fast vehicles it makes the vindicator slightly more appealing. Mine currently sits next to my whirlwind on my desk (in the used once but unlikely to see the field again pile).

[Navigator19]

I prefer to roll two Vindicators if I have the chance, though have you considered the option of a no-sponsons las-predator? I find that it's a cheap way vehicle with a twin-linked las that can keep up with the rest of the army.
Again, though, I prefer two Vindi's. The sheer oomf factor of it can really play with the heads of other armies.

[stereynolds]

have you considered the option of a no-sponsons las-predator? I find that it's a cheap

Really?! 105pts that could go on:

5 Scouts with a missile launcher
Pay 15pts more and take an Autocannon turret, lascannon sponson Predator
1.5 Multi-melta/Heavy Flamer Landspeeders

[Chibasan]

I agree with the above.
Also,consider that.your opponent shoots your beloved Vindi and he scores a weapon destroyed result.hmm,what you are left with is a rhino chassis to use as shield or ram....nice.
On the other hand,an AC/LC Pred gives you 3 weapons AND the same armour....All for say,120 pts and If I'm not mistaken with the Vindi you gain less for 125-135???
How does that sounds???

[spikeyjim]

@Chibasan, good point I think that just about seals the argument, 2 preds offering 6 weapons over 2 vindis with only 2, although big, but still 2 guns. Cheers guys! Plus preds still look all sexy and futuristic!

[Schismotive]

Space marine heavy support in general is all pretty bad in my experience; I used two preds for a while, they were trash and the only variant worth considering was the AC/LC one. But I still personally didn't like it; you can't move and shoot, they missed all the goddamn time and opponents would always be an ass about the line of sight on the lascannon sponsons... So vindicators to me seem better, but it's true that they only work when you have 2-3 of them; (the reliability of template weapons often is non existent...)

But I don't use either anymore... so who knows preds seem to work for people

[stereynolds]

But I don't use either anymore...

What do you use instead?

[Reivax26]

I agree with Schiz. I play Chaos and in every list I build now the heavys are always the same: 2 Land Raiders and a Havoc squad with 4 Lascannons. I know they are expensive as hell and no I don't care. The Land Raiders get my Berzerkers across the board to do what I need them to do and the Havoc squad will rape just about any tank in the game as well as instant killing those pesky paladins. Lets look at the Chaos heavy's by comparison: Predators aren't as good as people think they are, they still have side 11, half the time you can't fire will all your weapons so it really doesn't matter that you have 3 on it. The Vindicator as stated above can take one weapon destroyed and be screwed. Defilers are awesome but it is absolutely stupid that a Soul Grinder is armor 13 and a Defiler is armor 12 when they are basically the same model. Obliterators..given the amount of AP 1 and 2 str 8 or higher weapons in the game now, these guys are horribly overpriced. I know I am in the minority when I say this but Obliterators are not worth 75 points a model for what they do. That leaves the Land Raider and the Havocs. Well the Land Raider isn't as good as its cousin for the generic marines, ok. It also can take Daemonic Possession and ignore shaken and stunned which is something the generics wish like hell they could take. It can't move and fire its weapons at full speed. Big whoop. I don't play them for their Lascannons, I play them to get my close combat troops where I want them to be without having to rely on armor 11 to make it happen. Havocs are just as good as a Devastator squad with the exception that they don't get ATSKNF which doesn't really matter all that much.

My 2 cents

[Schismotive]

What do you use instead?

I really don't use heavy supports at all anymore, they're just utter garbage. However I do play black templars so it's a little differen't for me... I don't get devastators, whirlwinds, thunderfires, and as such I have to take lots of troops in rhinos, max out elite and whatever fast attack I can.

For chaos I really don't see very good heavy either; preds are bad, vindicators/defilers are OK I guess.., oblits are decent, havocs are worse than devastators... land raiders are okay. I would really just rhino spam as chaos, but I've only skimmed the codex.

[Kelanen]

I really don't use heavy supports at all anymore, they're just utter garbage. However I do play black templars so it's a little differen't for me...

...and as such BT are completely atypical. Most armies live and die on the Heavy Support. Interestingly BT and BA are the only armies where I would advocate Vindis - with Machine Spirit for BT, and Fast for BA. Possessed Vindis would work in CSM if Defilers and Oblits weren't already present, but with them, there is really no place for them.

I don't get devastators, whirlwinds, thunderfires

All of which are unplayable competitively in SM anyway. It's 3x Preds every time...

For chaos I really don't see very good heavy either; preds are bad, vindicators/defilers are OK I guess.., oblits are decent, havocs are worse than devastators... land raiders are okay. I would really just rhino spam as chaos, but I've only skimmed the codex.

I'm afraid it shows you've only just skimmed it! Rhino-spam is an utterly awful CSM army (every other MEQ army does it better), and Oblits are huge. Competitively speaking (in as far as CSM is) if you're not taking 2-3 slots of Oblits you want a different codex. It's a weak codex with 4 great units, and that's one of them (and required to enable another, supporting a third)

The OP doesn't state what army it's for which makes a big difference, but I'll echo others that Vindicators need using in at least a pair, but if you are in any vaguely competitive metagame it's hard to go wrong with AC/LC Preds. 3 of them is the default for many armies.

[Schismotive]

I just don't really see predators being any good most of the time. I know they're the 'competitive' choice for most SM armies but I don't ever see them work for anybody, in tournaments and casually. I mean they're cheap for what they do, which is what makes them viable; miss a lot and glance vehicles often enough I guess. But like I said before they're too slow, too easy to deny targets to, and AV11 won't keep them alive very long at all... but yeah I guess I can blame the BT codex for my opinion here o.O

[Konovalev]

Mine currently sits next to my whirlwind on my desk (in the used once but unlikely to see the field again pile).

RIP Whirlwind... I have 2 of them. I think they are the coolest looking vehicle in the space marine armory, but with their rules I just can't bring myself to field them outside of apocalypse...

[Kelanen]

I just don't really see predators being any good most of the time. I know they're the 'competitive' choice for most SM armies but I don't ever see them work for anybody, in tournaments and casually. I mean they're cheap for what they do, which is what makes them viable; miss a lot and glance vehicles often enough I guess.

They are there to hit Rhinos/Razorbacks on the first two turns - of which you'll often see 6-10. They can do that from your table edge, well out of range of pretty much anything but other Preds and Rifleman Dreads (which is the top config for exactly the same reasons). If they open up some transports each turn (which they should) then they have done their job. Stunlocking is also often sufficient, but worth less these days since GK are almost immune to it.

RIP Whirlwind... I have 2 of them. I think they are the coolest looking vehicle in the space marine armory, but with their rules I just can't bring myself to field them outside of apocalypse...

Agreed. Whirlwind is a very cool model, but absolutely terrible in play these days. It's reasonable against Nids, Orks Footdar and IG, but only one of those is a competitive army, and it's generally meched when played competitively. Even against those targets it's only a good weapon not a great one.

Whirlwinds need to be available in squadrons of 1-3 and probably to have their RoF upped. 3 instead of a Predator I might consider - 1:1 no way. The same argument could be made for Vindicators actually, given they need using in at least pairs. Since the IG codex showed that allowing squadrons doesn't actually break anything, and is only used when you must (with significant downsides), I'd like to see a lot of sub-optimal vehicle slots be offered in small squadrons. Back-row whirlwinds behind BLoS cover would actually work well as a squadron - one of the few things that do.

[Schismotive]

Yeah that would be really cool if whirlwinds got decent; squadrons of them (and other vehicles outside of the IG codex for the most part) would actually add an interesting element to the game. Then I would actually care about the BT codex not having like dozens of crappy different things

[Chibasan]

what about a whirl and a squad of snipers or a thunderfire or to be honest anything that can pin down your enemy compined with th/ss termies that can stun as well???