Wood or High elves?

[Tzavi III]

This month I'm going to make a big step and start a fantasy army after some years of 40k games with my Tau. I'm looking to order my first miniatures and add some of the new paints to my existing range. The moment I set my mind to the task I knew I would go for a balanced army that can run with many different builds so that I can test what I really like most (In 40k I got lucky after choosing my Tau only by looking at the models as I had no idea of what warhammer was back then. As it turned out shooting was what I liked in 40k). This time though it's different. At this point I know the rules of both warhammer games and I can't help myself but to consider both fluff and tactics before I make my final choice. As I had tried playing bretonnians (with the models of a friend) for some time, it was easy to exclude them and empire simply because I didn't want another human amy. My choices where now, based on looks and the fact that I don't favor evil armies, Tomb Kings, Lizardmen, High elves and Wood elves. So, now here I am having a dilema on which of the 2 elven armies I should choose after I abandoned the thought of lizardmen (too many players playing them in my community and it's always the same list with slann, skinks, stegadons, terradons, more skinks so no originality) and Tomb Kings because they don't yet have updated core models and Ididn't have where to start (I hate the old skeletons, love the tomb guard and the skeletons the vampires have). Take into acount also that I will build the army very slowly so that I have a chance to enjoy painting every single miniature first.

So with no further chatter here is what I like and don't like about each of the elves (pros are marked with + and cons with -):

Wood elves:
+They somehow remind me of my 40k army, not only because they shoot as hard, but because they have allies in the shape of trees that remind me of kroot and Vespid Stingwings
+Dryads are my favorite Warhammer models and Glade Guard are also very good considering how old they are. More or less, great core miniatures
+The army seems to have more variety than HE and by that I don't mean flexibility (HE win this area I think) but instead the different units they can bring on the tabletop as opposed to only elves
+although they are less competitive now, they are going to have a book released sooner so by the time I have collected the minis I like, a new range of those I don't can be available
-the have some very old and ''ugly minis, such as wardancers and the treeman
-to much metal ones, especially eternal guard which as a concept is one of my favourite
-no armor at all worries me (couldn't they have light armor?.... just to roll some saves every now and then only to remember it is part of the game)
-Very fragile yet costy Lords (If one can suggest a build that isn't I am all ears)
-only 3 lores and 2 of them where in the bretonnian army book also

High elves:
+The updated models look very good (not breathtaking but very good nonetheless)
+access to every lore described in the Warhammer rulebook... a think that adds to the versatility of the force
+more versatile than WE
+more competitive and I can't recall a time when they weren't at least mid tier (although competitiveness isn't a huge factor for me)
-less variety in models
-their update most probably comes months after that of the WE
-I've never painted over white primer before (though that can be a positive thing too)

So, what do you guys have to suggest based on what I present here... I am really confused. Choosing an army is indeed a very difficult part of the hobby, something I hadn't realise when playing 40k with my fav army.

[Why]

Actually high elves are rumored for a book before wood elves, don't ask why because no one really knows.

You are right about wood elves, and as your first fantasy army I would not recommend them because they have such a steep learning curve. All elves have the squishy lord problem, besides the unkillable dark elf dreadlord. Wood elves are a good army but it can be frustrating seeing that other armies have almost the smae unit as you for half the points.

High elves can win games often but with wood elves you have to play very well or get great rolls to have win any games. High elves can be very powerfull, but it's is easy to tone down your list for friendly games.

Pick the army that looks the coolest or you have a cool theme to do with them.

[Bring_Back_Chaos_Dwarfs?]

Wood Elves are very low tier. Maybe the bottom. You say you want an army that can provide a balanced list with a variety of builds. Unfortunately within the current edition of the rules and the long outdated WE book, the wood elves have really one or two viable builds - and with those they are just trying to survive most of the time. High Elves are way more competitive. Hate to be all doom and gloom. If you were familiar with Fantasy I'd say go for WE; the challenge is immensely rewarding. But since you are just starting out I'm afraid you'll be turned away from all the frustration for, what is overall, a very nice game. With that being said, if you like being an underdog that gets looks of disbelief when you beat a daemons of chaos army (fyi in fantasy, unlike in 40k, they are major s*** kickers) WE again are immensely satisfying. Some good things about the WE are the archers and the tree units such as dryads, tree kin and tree men. War hawk riders have there uses and way-watchers can be really good at times they are just soooo expensive points wise. Great Eagles are extremely useful/ necessary, just as they are in the High Elves army. Wardancers and Wild Riders are overpriced and play horrible due to the old rules. Glade Riders-- not so good, overcosted. Eternal Guard- they get shot up so easily, they get hit back in combat and crumple, and they cost the same points as archers. (I used to play with 20 regularly in 7th, but not now after 8th). ah ha- I just saw your comment about competitiveness not being an issue for you, well WE do look cool, a lot more movement of pose and variety of troops as you said. I guess the question is how much of a challenge do you want to take on? (I don't play 40k, but from reading all the forums and comments, I'd say WE are as challenged as tyranids are in winning games).
ok. High Elves are another slight can of worms. I might post more on them in a bit, or maybe someone else wants to chime in.

[Tzavi III]

Wood Elves are very low tier. Maybe the bottom. You say you want an army that can provide a balanced list with a variety of builds. Unfortunately within the current edition of the rules and the long outdated WE book, the wood elves have really one or two viable builds - and with those they are just trying to survive most of the time. High Elves are way more competitive. Hate to be all doom and gloom. If you were familiar with Fantasy I'd say go for WE; the challenge is immensely rewarding. But since you are just starting out I'm afraid you'll be turned away from all the frustration for, what is overall, a very nice game. With that being said, if you like being an underdog that gets looks of disbelief when beat a daemons of chaos army (fyi in fantasy, unlike in 40k, they are major s*** kickers) WE again are immensely satisfying. Some good things about the WE are the archers and the tree units such as dryads, tree kin and tree men. War hawk riders have there uses and way-watchers can be really good at times they are just soooo expensive points wise. Great Eagles are extremely useful/ necessary, just as they are in the High Elves army. Wardancers and Wild Riders are overpriced and play horrible due to the old rules. Glade Riders-- not so good, overcosted. Eternal Guard- they get shot up so easily, they get hit back in combat and crumple, and they cost the same points as archers. (I used to play with 20 regularly in 7th, but not now after 8th). ah ha- I just saw your comment about competitiveness not being an issue for you, well WE do look cool, a lot more movement of pose and variety of troops as you said. I guess the question is how much of a challenge do you want to take on? (I don't play 40k, but from reading all the forums and comments, I'd say WE are as challenged as tyranids are in winning games).

You could say as challenged as tau are in winning games. Seriously though, although I generally change my mind easily, losing games doesn't frustrate me so much. Being the underdog has it's uses. Firstly, you most probably have a unique army in your community (Lizzies are just overused just like they are op frm what I have seen). Secondly, as you are playing an army that generally doesn't win, you can test everything in the army book without frustration (the fact that I have very good relationship with the fantasy community helps in this too). Of course WE seem way underpowered. Thanks for the info on them. I really liked it and crazy as I am, I may as well start wood elves for the challenge (Tau were a challenge too and I love them)... If only elven lords were T4...of course it's fluffy for them to be fragile, but the WE one has very little protection. I will make some research and I'm looking farword to more opinions snd advice

[tmarichards]

Wood Elves are definitely one of the harder armies to use, and they are on the weaker end of the meta-game (the rise of Ogres hit Wood Elves pretty hard), but once you get the hang of them they're perfectly capable of winning games, you just have to play well enough to earn the win

In all honesty, in the last 5 months of using Wood Elves I've been having more fun than at any other time in the hobby, and I've been doing relatively well with them- have a look at some of the battle reports in the thread in my signature

[Plexi]

Maybe it's just because I've been playing them for so long and they are without a doubt, my first love, but I would say that WE have more useful builds than HE. All the HE armies I see are very one dimensional. PG block, SM block, some chaff, and a nasty magic phase. WE can win with a fast cav list, it isn't easy, and you have to do it against the right opponent, but it can be done.

In all honesty I would say play whichever one appeals to your sense of fluff and which models you like best. Neither one is in fantastic shape as far as army power anyhow.

[Snake22486]

I play HE. i agree with plexi

[Jind_Singh]

Ah crap - wrote a really long and detailed reply and the internet cut out - lost it!!

OK - here's the deal....

Two months ago I get a random message on Facebook - some dude wants to get into Warhammer and wants to ask me some questions...sure, give him my cell and ask him to call me.

So he calls me - and asked what I thought about Wood Elves as much like the OP he liked a lot of the models and background....

Oh - he also told me he'd bought an army, second hand, so he was pretty much all in!

Well I organized a 1000 point game with him to teach him some basics, I used my Goblins, and we had a fun intro game. The next 3 weeks we got together on Thursdays and played slightly bigger games each week - and got him used to various elements of the game.

Now it's been just over 2 months and the dude LOVES his army! Sometimes he even wins!

But the point isn't about winning/losing - it's about having fun - which he is by the bucket load.

If you like the models, if you like the background, and if the army sings to your hobby blood it's the army for you!


Now on a technical side....

1) A lot of players don't face Wood Elves and therefore will be surprised by the ticks and combos they can pull - I know I was!
2) There are a lot of viable builds still with the army, lots of decent units
3) The Wood Elves surprised me the most by the fact that they can hit HARD! For a race with no universal hatred or ASF they sure do pack a wallop! They have a bunch of hard hitting units that have torn several of my armies apart! HE played Ogres & Tomb Kings too and tore them apart - again I was shocked! So far his struggle is against the armies of Chaos (warriors & Daemons).
4) Yes the Wood Elves have a sharper learning curve than most armies....or do they? Orcs & Goblins have stacks of special rules & units. Other armies have complicated magic phases or are a pain to write lists for (looking at you Empire!). But the point is when you get through the 1st few games you'll be hooked and will be developing much faster than someone who takes a 'safe army'. My buddy is already playing much better than a few other newbies who have been at it MUCH longer!
5) Replacement models exist - Lord of the Rings Ent is a fantastic Treeman, there is strong rumors of a splash release Treeman model - I have seen my buddy take Dryads and convert them into stunning Treekin (which are amazing in the game by the by!) - The Wood Elves also have a really nice core range also - as well as some of their character models.
6) Their shooting is still really excellent - last game at 2500 points he tore my Empire apart - and it was a full on game, no help to him or anything.

The Wood Elves have depth - and are a fantastic army - you may regret going all in with the High Elves as I have a feeling you'll return to the Wood Elves anyway...


But for now purchase Island of Blood, get someone to trade the Skaven for High Elves and play small games, learn the core rules - and then sell the Elves off and buy Wood Elves!

[Duke Ramulots]

I picked up wood elves back in january and have to say Im surprised to see how well they do compared to my internet driven vision of how they would perform. I started collecting them just because they look cool and I like being the underdog.

So, army positives(IMHO): Archers- best in the game, Infantry- dryads are cheap and kill really well and are tough enough to last a little while.

Negatives: why can I not take any other lores on my hero level mages?

[daemonish]

Wood elves, I just prefer the army on every level. The dryads, treekin and treemen are just (potentially) great models. By that i mean the current treeman and treekin aren't great however the old treeman model and the current Ents look great so they have the potential.

[stereynolds]

All the HE armies I see are very one dimensional. PG block, SM block, some chaff, and a nasty magic phase.

Funnily enough I don't know anyone out of the 6 or so high elf players who runs Phoenix Guard on a regular basis. A couple run swordmasters (I don't) and only 2 of them run offensive magic phase (I mayself run defensive to save the points elswhere). We all run chaff eagles :P

I quite like the look of the Wood Elf army. The ability to take lots of dryads/treekin etc is pretty cool. I'd say go with them, your already used to up hill battles with Tau (I know what thats like) so go with them.

[xxRavenxx]

I also think the internet slants how good wood elves are. If you exclude tournament level "chosenstar" units and such, and play a normal game, wood elves are utterly fine. My win loss draw ratio with them is pretty much 1:1:1.

They are a really different army, using small units, and actually deciding to use the flee rules fairly often, which is refreshing. They blend combat and ranged well, in that you plink at an advancing unit to whittle it down, and then slam into it with wardancers, or treekin, or similar, and attempt to finish it off. Their magic access is fine. a lvl 4 with life, and a second with beasts if the points limit is high enough is what I generally run. I do wish they'd had a quick faq saying lore of beasts could go on lvl 1/2 wizards, but we can't have everything

[Forgotmytea]

I'm going to throw in another vote for the 'whichever you prefer the look and feel of' crowd, but as a long-time Wood Elf player I thought I'd offer my views on them

They're definitely not as bad as the internet in general makes out - they're certainly difficult to use, but by no means impossible to win with. They also do a good job of covering all phases, so you'll get to learn about them all rather than missing out some (Dwarves and magic? ). Our basic infantry are really quite good - I've surprised many opponents with my Dryads before, and the merits of Glade Guard are all over the internet. Similarly, most of the special choices work - I've had some good successes with wardancers (though ymmv), and treekin are still a superb unit. On the rare front, waywatchers are fun (if a little bit costly), and great eagles are always good as warmachine / character hunters. The treeman is also a must for me personally - especially when backed up by Regrowth from the Lore of Life, I've had him chew through far more points of enemies than I paid for him!

Personally, I have to admit I do like the models (yep, even the treekin and treeman ), which was a big incentive when I started them, but as others have mentioned there are other good models that work as stand-ins for them. I've also found them to be one of the most rewarding armies to paint, second only to my Thousand Sons really, and am at the happy stage of being able to field over 2000pts of fully painted models, which is a rarity for me! So overall, if you like them, go for them - as others have said, all armies have a learning curve, and once you get your head round the asrai they're a really fun and rewarding army to play.

Ben

[sasheep]

It seems from your post that you prefer woodies so I say go for it. I have been playing them on and off since I started fantasy 10 years ago and have loved it. I have spoken to a few other wood elf players I know and we all agree they are the most interesting and enjoyable army to play. The models are brilliant, by far one of the best ranges GW have ever made (imo). They have a few different play styles and some nasty tricks but it will take time to learn them. There is a steep learning curve and you have to think more than with other armies but it does make the win more satisfying. We have some brilliant units though that help treemendously (couldn't resist). Our archers are brilliant although kinda pricey (but then most of our stuff is overpriced so this doesn't really matter). you can move and shoot with no penalty, have great bs across the board and strength 4 bows at close range. Dryads are good cc core that can protect your flanks and take on small flanking units like fast cavalry on their own or can gang up and lend a hand to your TK, TM EG with bigger units. Treekin are tough, they hit like a brick and if you can keep them away from fire attacks they can take on just about anything (especially with some magic support). Treemen, again another solid tree unit. They can hit hard but will need help with hordes. Wild riders, EG, wardancers, are all good but are very fragile. Check out some of the tactics threads for some better more detailed reviews and tips.

As for a survivable lord, try this:
Highborn: Great Weapon, Armor of Silvered Steel, Dawnstone , Annoyance of Nettlings
Get him up close and personal and start challenging. I run him with 21 eternal guard, a bsb and a beastweaver with harp. You will be surprised how tough that unit is and it will surprise your opponent even more.

Finally if you do go down the WE route, have a look on http://www.asrai.org/index.php, some really friendly posters and some good ideas for different army builds, conversions etc.

[Satan]

Get High Elves. Not just because of wood elves being a poor army, but because you'll want to play an army that gets supported continously when it comes to GW games, and that makes HE a solid choice.

I say this as a WE player.

[MR. GRUMPY]

Maybe it's just because I've been playing them for so long and they are without a doubt, my first love, but I would say that WE have more useful builds than HE. All the HE armies I see are very one dimensional. PG block, SM block, some chaff, and a nasty magic phase. WE can win with a fast cav list, it isn't easy, and you have to do it against the right opponent, but it can be done.

This is simply untrue. First of all just the difference between a PG block and a SM block is huge. Not that anyone ever plays SM blocks, more like in units of 14. They work entirely differently and need different kind of support to work. So just those two, which you call one dimensional is two very different builds funnily enough. And lets not get me started on the different cavalry builds, dragon builds, or eagle builds that people have shown successful with.

As for a fast-cav WE army I would really like to see proof of it working because I cannot imagine how that would ever work out vs any kind of opposition.

[Duke Ramulots]

As for a fast-cav WE army I would really like to see proof of it working because I cannot imagine how that would ever work out vs any kind of opposition.

Watch Mr. Malorians youtube battle reports. He manages to be very competetive with his almost all glade rider army.

[jtrowell]

I agree with other that Wood Elves can be competitive in normal games where you don't bring the extremes, but they usually only have once build: glade guards for ranged + forest spirits for close combat (dryads+treekin+treeman), their only ranked infantry (eternal guard) is medium at best and expensive, and only core if you take a combat lord as your general, and the other choices in the army (except for the omnipresent giant eagles) are used more of less depending on your mood but often overcosted for what they bring (you will often think that a few more glade guards or spirits would have been more effective for the same points)

Myself I would advise you to first look if one of the army books already released for 8th edition (the hardback ones, currently there are : Orcs&Goblins, Tomb Kings, Ogre Kingdoms, Empire, Vampire Counts, with Warriors of chaos supposed to come in a few months), as they all allows for multiple viable builds, wich is not true for most older books, especially wood elves.

As someone already said, the current rumours are that High elves *might* be next after Warriors of chaos (probably early 2013, as the hobbit game and 40k 6th edition boxed set will probably fill most late year slots), and despite a few flaws, they have already a great selection of differrent elite infantry, access to all 8 lores from the rulebook plus their own, they also have dragons, heavy adn light cavalry, average archers (for elves, still better than other races but a tad expensives). Myself I don't like the way the army rule of speed of asuryan works, as I find that it make the army slightly more boring and remove the potential for more varied special rules in the units (when you already have such a powerful rule, it's hard to add other rules on an unit without it being *very* expensive in points), but I hope that the new army book will change that (the rule could be kept as it is for a few elite units, like swordmasters and/ord some combat characters for exemple), but whatever happen the army should only become better (from a *fun* point of view, expect the most abused options like teclis and some magic itesm to be removed/changed to be kept in line while the worst one will probably become slightly better or more cheap and new units added like other 8th edition books)

[Urgat]

Pick the one you prefer, that's all there is to it. If you like the models, the fluff, the way it works, there's nothing else to consider. Powerlevels, according to "internet wisdom" (wisdom, ahah) is only about how much filth you can get away with. No new book soon? So what? Some of the most enthusiastic players you'll find are those that play armies like Chaos Dwarfs.
As for minute stuff you pointed out:
-no saves for WE? The forest spirit half has plenty of them, don't worry.
-ugly minis? Yeah. Can't do much about that. But they aren't that old, both the treeman and the wardancers have been updated with the last book. Very old is relative in the hobby, or what does that make my stone trolls?
-metal? They're bound to be finecast'ed at some point. GW are phasing out their metal production gear, they will have to convert them at some point.
-costly but fragile lords? That's elves for you. You can bet the unkillable dreadlord will disappear with the next DE book for instance, and good riddance
-lores. if that matters to you, well, most armies are the same, or worse.

[Tzavi III]

As I don't quite understand how to quote from several posts I decided not to quote anything because every post has been very helpfull. So, from what I've heard I deciced to go for Hi...''roots burst from the ground''....Wood Elves! I clearly prefer their look and I imagine how they'll be with some new minis. Of course, now that I think about it the main reason I prefer them are tree spirits (especially those dryads). HE while great looking and though I love their fluff, are simply HE, so you are sure that every new release for them is going to be elves and t3. So Woodies for originality and for their awesome models and I really hope that they get a new book soon. I don't want them OP, neither I care if they are competitive, but I'm very enthusiastic with the expectation of new models and perhaps units.

Some questions though, as I see the majority of people that answered play wood elves. I'm going to order a box of glade guard and the wood elf lord with great weapon (is metal or resin preferable?) and with them some new colors because I've never used greens before. My Tau were painted mainly with that Helman's Mustard (also known as Iyanden Darksun). Is white or black primer preferable for green. Also, I may be interested with a winter theme (white and blue robes... bluish dryads). What colors should I buy for each and what themme do you prefer?