Empire detatchments and watchtower

[Scalebug]

What? Where are you getting this from? Increasing the unit size beyond 20, using anything other than core, using anything other than infantry, or placing more than one unit inside the tower are all specific violations of the watchtower rules. A unit of twenty swordsmen with a detachment does not violate any of those rules. None.

It violates that what you are allowed to deploy is one unit of up to twenty core, in the watchtower, because you would have to deploy it's detachments within 3" of it, as per the detachment rules. Allowing for that is no different from making another modification. Neither is your sollution of letting the detachment run free. It is a modification of the rules. You can do it, but it is a house rule, and it is certainly not needed for the scenario.,

Really, I'm wasting my time here, am I not?

[Mercules]

We have three rules colliding here.

1. Rules for where units can deploy which is in the deployment zone unless some other rule overrides that.
2. Rules for the Watchtower scenario which only makes an exception to the rules in 1. for one unit of 20 or less Infantry.
3. Rules for Detachments and where they must deploy which does not make an exception for the rules in 1.

So with 3 the Detachment can't go anywhere but in the deployment zone so logically the Parent unit can't be more than 3" from the deployment zone or it's Detachment wouldn't be able to deploy. The watchtower lets them deploy outside the deployment zone, but is more than 3" from the deployment zone. Ergo, units with Detachments can't deploy in the Watchtower.

[Cella_Dweller]

[QUOTE=Scalebug;6222361Playing by the rules is not bad sportsmanship, and allowing your opponent to break them is not good ditto...[/QUOTE]

I believe they put sportsmanship in the rules this edition. It's called "The most important rule". It is located on page 2 of the rulebook. So I suggest until they clarify this for us we should remember this rule as it is "IMPORTANT".


It has even been place in the FAQ.


Q: What happens when there is a conflict between two magic items or special rules? (p2)
A: Use ‘The Most Important Rule’

So I am not letting anyone break the rules I am simply allowing my opponent to use his application of the rule that we were disagreeing on.


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[geldedgoat]

So with 3 the Detachment can't go anywhere but in the deployment zone ************************* so logically the Parent unit can't be more than 3" from the deployment zone or it's Detachment wouldn't be able to deploy.

Right there is where the rules gap occurs. You're right that the watchtower allows a deployment exception. You're also right that that exception doesn't extend to the detachment. Where you skip a step is in assuming that this restriction on detachments must necessarily transfer to the parent as well. With nothing else to go on from the rules, the next logical step could just as easily be to simply deploy the detachment regularly (or not deploy it all, as was mentioned earlier). We're missing that one crucial line that tells us what to do in the event that placing the parent unit prevents the detachment from deploying according to its normal restrictions.

Hey, here's a question that might help: Imagine you've filled your deployment zone, so that there is only room left for two more units (your last two units, fancy that). The catch is, those two empty spaces are adjacent to two different table edges, on opposite ends of the deployment zone. Oh yeah, and the two units you've got to place are a parent and detachment. What happens? (I'll admit to being at a disadvantage here, as I only have the previous edition of the Empire army book to reference. I have looked over the current edition before, though, and I don't recall any changes made to the detachment rules that would be relevant here - to this question or the thread at large. I could be wrong, though).

Really, I'm wasting my time here, am I not?

It's probably a good rule of thumb to follow that if you think you might be wasting your time discussing rules on an internet forum dedicated to a miniatures game, just step away. It'll keep your blood pressure down and keep you from making unnecessarily rude remarks.

[Danny76]

I see both sides of this argument,
I'd personally say you can't. When it is FAQ'd it will go the way of not being able to.

The thing is as detatchments are a special rule modifying the standard single unit type look. They are a set almost. And you can place a single unit in the watchtower. Unfortunately there is nothing explicitly saying that all matters, so we shall have to wait.

But i think it is clear. You place it all at once as a set, not one after the other, so you can't say parent unit in the tower then oh detatchment doesn't fit. It is just both go down in one, where legally possible.
That is in the rules for detatchments, so surely that makes a difference..

[Mercules]

Right there is where the rules gap occurs. You're right that the watchtower allows a deployment exception. You're also right that that exception doesn't extend to the detachment. Where you skip a step is in assuming that this restriction on detachments must necessarily transfer to the parent as well. With nothing else to go on from the rules, the next logical step could just as easily be to simply deploy the detachment regularly (or not deploy it all, as was mentioned earlier). We're missing that one crucial line that tells us what to do in the event that placing the parent unit prevents the detachment from deploying according to its normal restrictions.

That's because there is nothing there to do. You simply CAN'T place the parent unit in a location where the detachment can't be placed. Full stop, end of story, no need to go further. It's not an option so you can't do it.

Hey, here's a question that might help: Imagine you've filled your deployment zone, so that there is only room left for two more units (your last two units, fancy that). The catch is, those two empty spaces are adjacent to two different table edges, on opposite ends of the deployment zone. Oh yeah, and the two units you've got to place are a parent and detachment. What happens? (I'll admit to being at a disadvantage here, as I only have the previous edition of the Empire army book to reference. I have looked over the current edition before, though, and I don't recall any changes made to the detachment rules that would be relevant here - to this question or the thread at large. I could be wrong, though).

Simple, you can't deploy. Since you can't legally deploy your army you are breaking the rules and you will have to forfeit the game. Pick up the models and now you have time to play another game where hopefully you pay attention to your deployment and not make the same mistake twice. After all it wouldn't be my fault my opponent couldn't bother to place his army correctly.

[geldedgoat]

You simply CAN'T place the parent unit in a location where the detachment can't be placed.

Page number for that rule? (And no, I don't mean set up those same steps again with the same rules gap.)

Since you can't legally deploy your army you are breaking the rules and you will have to forfeit the game.

I would repeat my above response here, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you're joking.

[Mercules]

Pg. 150 under Deployment which also references Page 142. Those are normal deployment rules.

The player that controls the tower may deploy a single Core infantry unit of no more than 20 models in the tower if they wish to do so.

Then later on:

Units may be placed anywhere in their half that is more than 12" from the centre line.

Pg. 30 of the Empire book:

Detachments must be deployed at the same time as their Regimental Unit, with at least one model from the Detachment within 3" of their Regimental Unit.

You have to fullfill all the rules. If you can't you can't deploy. It is that simply. Notice, it isn't that detachments "are" placed it is that they "must" be deployed that way.

[geldedgoat]

To put it another way, "the detachment must be placed within 3" of the parent" is not the same as "the parent must be placed within 3" of the detachment". The former is in the rules; the latter is an assumption.

edit: I didn't see your last reply before posting this, but I think this still stands as a decent response.

[Mercules]

To put it another way, "the detachment must be placed within 3" of the parent" is not the same as "the parent must be placed within 3" of the detachment". The former is in the rules; the latter is an assumption.

edit: I didn't see your last reply before posting this, but I think this still stands as a decent response.

Wrong... the whole rule is:

Detachments must be deployed at the same time as their Regimental Unit, with at least one model from the Detachment within 3" of their Regimental Unit.

There are NO exceptions in the rules to allow you to not deploy your whole army except as Reinforcements and the Empire book mentions them as well stating detachements must come on the board at the same time as the regimental unit and be 3" away with their back edge on the board edge. You can't continue the game until ALL your units are placed. Detachments can NOT be placed without a Regiment and have to go within 3" of them.

It isn't the same as the other rule, but it doesn't matter if we have that other rule or not, because you can't play without deploying all your units and detachments can't get on the board except the ONE WAY.

[geldedgoat]

Wrong... the whole rule is

What I posted is an accurate restatement of the rule, so just assume that I repeated my last post again.

[Scalebug]

What I posted is an accurate restatement of the rule, so just assume that I repeated my last post again.

No, let's instead assume you understand that you are wrong and stop this nonsense... seriously, you are wrong. Get it. Wrong, as in not right. Take what the rest of us are saying here to heart and get on with it. Sometimes the world works like that. You are wrong.

We wish you all the best in next discussion you want to get into, but for this one, understand that you have not gotten it right. Adjust your conceptions and move on.

Same advice to Cella-Dwella above there; We see how you are thinking, but you are also wrong. Wrong.

[Mercules]

What I posted is an accurate restatement of the rule, so just assume that I repeated my last post again.

So no real argument to add? Gotcha.

[geldedgoat]

So no real argument to add? Gotcha.

I restated the rule to more easily convey a point. I did not change the meaning of the rule in the slightest. You then posted the actual rule - I'm guessing because you think it says something else, though you chose not to elaborate why. Until you decide to do that, my only two choices are ignore you or repeat myself. I'd rather not ignore you as that doesn't accomplish much, and you haven't been rude enough to warrant such dismissal. By referring you back to my previous post I was hoping you would pick up on the gap in your argument that I was addressing so I could avoid an unnecessary explanatory post like this.

My bad.

[Tzeentch Lover]

I might be incorrect here, but I seem to recall reading somewhere(BRB or FAQ), that if a unit can not deploy(or maybe it was can not fit) in the deployment zone, then it is put into reserves.

If that is correct, you could put the parent unit in the tower, but then the detachment(s) would need to go into reserve.

[Mercules]

I restated the rule to more easily convey a point. I did not change the meaning of the rule in the slightest. You then posted the actual rule - I'm guessing because you think it says something else, though you chose not to elaborate why. Until you decide to do that, my only two choices are ignore you or repeat myself. I'd rather not ignore you as that doesn't accomplish much, and you haven't been rude enough to warrant such dismissal. By referring you back to my previous post I was hoping you would pick up on the gap in your argument that I was addressing so I could avoid an unnecessary explanatory post like this.

My bad.

I addressed your gap. There isn't one except the one you are attempting to create.

Units can not go anywhere but in the deployment zone. The scenario states this. It doesn't say to put them in the reserve or not deploy them. The only unit that doesn't go into the deployment zone is the Core infantry unit 20 or less models strong. It makes no exceptions for the Detachments and since they can't deploy anywhere but within the deployment zone and within 3" of the regimental unit, thus fullfilling both rules, it can't deploy. There is also no exception for not deploying units in the scenario. So to abide by all the rules you wouldn't be able to deploy a Regimental unit in the tower. No gap.

[Tzeentch Lover]

I think I was remembering this from the FAQ:

Q: During the random deployment on a Dawn Attack mission,
what happens if a unit is unable to deploy where the Deployment
table says it must, because it will not fit for example? (p145)
A: The unit is placed in reserve and will enter play in the first
turn using the rules for reinforcements on page 27.

Never mind.

[Damocles8]

[QUOTE=Danny76;6224530]I see both sides of this argument,
I'd personally say you can't. When it is FAQ'd it will go the way of not being able to.
[\QUOTE]

This! It simplifies the issue. People here can't see both sides of the argument....

[yabbadabba]

This! It simplifies the issue. People here can't see both sides of the argument....

Because there isn't two sides? Seriously mate I am one of the most liberal players I know, and compared to some on warseer, I am a rules hippy; but this is black and white. I honestly cannot see any other way to interpret this. An Empire unit with a detachment cannot deploy in the watchtower, and what reinforces this is there is no compunction to deploy in the watchtower. The scenario explicitly allows for this situation.

OK, lets pose the simple question. I deploy my unit of 20 Halberdiers in the watchtower. Where do my 10 Swordsmen and 10 Handgunners go? If we can answer this logically then we might get somewhere.

[geldedgoat]

Units can not go anywhere but in the deployment zone. The scenario states this.

Which scenario? I see something somewhat similar in the Battle for the Pass section, but that's it.

The only unit that doesn't go into the deployment zone is the Core infantry unit 20 or less models strong. It makes no exceptions for the Detachments and since they can't deploy anywhere but within the deployment zone and within 3" of the regimental unit, thus fullfilling both rules, it can't deploy. There is also no exception for not deploying units in the scenario. ************************** So to abide by all the rules you wouldn't be able to deploy a Regimental unit in the tower. No gap.

Right, I think I see where this is going...

OK, lets pose the simple question. I deploy my unit of 20 Halberdiers in the watchtower. Where do my 10 Swordsmen and 10 Handgunners go? If we can answer this logically then we might get somewhere.

I asked a similar question earlier, and the only response I got was "Forfeit the game!" The problem is, except for that little FAQ blurb Tzeentch Lover just gave us concerning deployment in Dawn Attack, I haven't seen anything that states what to do if a unit can't be deployed normally.