Why would you NOT bring space marine bikes ?

[Chaos257]

They're 8 points more and you get t5, the ability to move 12 and rapid fire, the abilit to shoot 24, re-roll misses....

You really don't need to upgrade (imo) one multi-melta on attack bike and MAYBE one metla gun... you're fast enough to just assault the vehicle...

Also, what is this 3+ invun save ? Is that from moving 24 ? How do you move 24 and can you still shoot on the turn you do that?

[stereynolds]

Bikes shouldn't assault (unless its an immbolised vehicle). The 3++ is for moving 18"-24" (and you can't shoot that turn). Biggest problems:

Can't get up buildings, die to difficult terrain and die just as easily to heavy weapons as normal marines. Sometimes easier as they aren't in cover and have no transport to protect them.

They can be good but usually with bikes its an all or nothing. Either take an entire army of them or not at all. Having said that I've done well with a Biker captain (relic blade) plus solo bike squad with tri melta and a fist. Althought that just might be my meta its good in :P

[Chibasan]

The only good difference BA do with this is that they can attach a sp on bike and gain FnP and FC.but still....

[stereynolds]

Korsarro adds the same for Vanilla although he swaps FNP for Hit and run which isn't so good. However it does open up:

Korsarro with cmd squad
Champion
Apothecary
3x Lightning claws
Chaplain (for re-roll misses) or Librarian (5++)

Only particularly good bike unit in assault though. And your opponent will start deploying his units off the ground floor so you can't assault him :P

[WodenMHC]

Also a Bike Squad's battlefield profile is enormous - This generally contributes to them being assaulted, or thinking they can win the multiple assaults that they attempt to pull off.

I believe Kirby at 3++ Blog has done a good analysis of Bikes, but mostly focuses on the Blood Angels variety (which are significantly better).

[Chaos257]

I was thinking more of just a tough bolta squad with khan so they can outflank and count as a scoring unit.

I like bolters for some reason. Probably not tourney worthy but still fun.

[Chibasan]

Depends.3 at.bikes with heavy bolters moving 12' and shooting onather 36' heavy 3 shots...hmmm.as you well know sheer numbers of shots wins you the tourneys,so.....

[stereynolds]

Also a Bike Squad's battlefield profile is enormous

This depends. They only need to be 5 models strong to qualify as a Troops choice (sergeant with combi weapon, 2x Special, 1 normal and 1 attack bike) and still pack a helluva lot more punch than a tactical squad due to the sheer number of weapons to numbers ratio.

[Clarkson]

This depends. They only need to be 5 models strong to qualify as a Troops choice (sergeant with combi weapon, 2x Special, 1 normal and 1 attack bike) and still pack a helluva lot more punch than a tactical squad due to the sheer number of weapons to numbers ratio.

its good... but other units do it better... yes you can have khan and 3 bolterbikes = 295 at its cheapest, but still susceptible to death but weight of shots. lots of ap1-3 out there, that makes putting 1/5th the army at risk, on turn 2 if you are lucky.. or turn 4 in most cases, sure a good late game objective grabber but it has its faults.


reason i would never take bikes, is they are just not worth the extra stuff you can take in its place.. i'd rather 5man snipers for 75 than 3 bikes for 90... more shots and more chance to pen vehicles. 6ap5 upto 12" or 3 at 13"-24"2 shots or 5 ap 6 shots at upto 36" that wound against toughness things on a 4+ regardless, and str3 on vehicles with a rend on 6's meaning i can glance av12 and not just the av 10 they have

[Freman Bloodglaive]

The issue with bikes is that you pay for them in two ways. Firstly in the 9 points a model that they cost over a tactical marine, secondly in the Captain you have to take on bike to access them. For a conventional army most people will just take a null zone Librarian.

That said, let's look at the comparative strengths of bikes. A typical tactical squad would have ten men, a heavy weapon (multi-melta or missile launcher) a meltagun, a combi-melta and a Rhino for 220 points. For comparable costs you get five bikes, two melta, a combi-melta, and an attached attack bike with multi-melta, also 220 points.

The advantages of the bikes are obvious. They move quickly and they can move without affecting their firepower. They pack in more special weapons, four versus three, and because their bolters are twin-linked and relentless those weapons will play a bigger part in the game than the more numerous weapons in the tactical squad.

The downsides of the bikes are equally obvious. The tactical marines are protected by their Rhino armour so anti-infantry weapons have little or no effect on them. The bikes, while man for man more resistant than the tactical marines, are not shielded in the same way. Poison spam Dark Eldar, or strength 5 storm bolters (WAARRD!) kill them nicely. Heavy weapons, freed from having to shoot at vehicles will kill bikes too. The bikes have a larger footprint so are harder to fit behind cover too.

Bikes are fast, hit hard, and against certain matchups die quickly. However, as someone who plays them, they are a lot of fun.

To get an assault element in your list (bikes do not do assault) you need to invest in a biker command squad. Their melee ability is something you pay for though, and pay through the nose. However, that said, they are quite good at their job. Mine run three lightning claws, a hammer, four storm shields and two meltaguns. That is pricey, but it allows them to deal with a multitude of threats.

Enemies in buildings are annoying, but twin-linked boltguns kill most things without having to assault.

The above comparison of scouts and bikes is invalid, firstly because three bikes are not a legal squad, secondly because rending strength 3 sniper rifles are not something to rely on when trying to kill armour. I know, when I get three or four meltaguns within half range of a vehicle there's a pretty good chance that it will die. I also know that against most enemies, twin-linked BS4 boltguns are a more reliable way of killing troops than a sniper rifle in the hands of a scout. Bikes are an offensive front line unit that can take the fight to the enemy, scouts are good for sitting on objectives and trying not to die too quickly. Are scouts good? I like them. Are they a replacement for bikes? No.

[Konovalev]

I've long considered a bike army. But everytime I do that math I end up with a startup cost of over $500 and that's before acquiring all the extra bits I need...

[Sqallum]

You only really take bikes with the Bikerboss captain - Kirby has done a GREAT evaluation over at 3++ - it really is all bikes or none at all

[Kelanen]

Agreed with all of the above really.

1) The real cost of the Bikes is the obligatory Captain more than anything.
2) You go all bikes (at least no other infantry, some supporting vehicles is reasonable) or none.
3) SM Bikes (not BA) is a shooty army, you only ever assault when you have no choice and will die anyway, or when the odds are hugely stacked your way.
4) If you are going the bike route you'd be *much* better (like +75% powerlevel) doing it under Blood Angels (and you lose 10-20% doing it via Dark Angels)

About the only vaguely positive analysis of SM bikes I can come up with is this: The SM 3x spam list is definitely the optimal, but peaks at 1500, after that it's really treading water. The bike list really wants to be bigger than that, and can usefully be quite a lot bigger. If you are are playing at say 2k or 2.5k, and for whatever reason you are going to play codex Marines with no other options possible (Fluff? Fan loyalty? Someone holding a gun to your head?) then I'd hazard a guess that a bike list might be the best, and at least be viable. Blood Angels will still do it better, and in fact scale more strongly, but for larger games, Bikes might be the right answer for the wrong codex...

In a more normal environment then the bike list isn't bad but isn't great. It's a tier 2 SM list, which bearing in mind SM are tier 2 anyway, means it's really tier 3 in the wider metagame. You can certainly win with it, it's fun, you can outplay a similar opponent or list. It's definitely not optimal though.

[Bonzai]

I would say that all bike lists are probably one of the top 3 vanilla marine lists. Khan is nice, and fluffy, but combat tactics can be really potent. Voluntarily falling back to get out of assault is nice for bikes.

That being said, there are plenty of reasons not to use bikes, and I agree that they are mostly an all or nothing choice.

[Clarkson]

The above comparison of scouts and bikes is invalid, firstly because three bikes are not a legal squad, secondly because rending strength 3 sniper rifles are not something to rely on when trying to kill armour. I know, when I get three or four meltaguns within half range of a vehicle there's a pretty good chance that it will die. I also know that against most enemies, twin-linked BS4 boltguns are a more reliable way of killing troops than a sniper rifle in the hands of a scout. Bikes are an offensive front line unit that can take the fight to the enemy, scouts are good for sitting on objectives and trying not to die too quickly. Are scouts good? I like them. Are they a replacement for bikes? No.

Page 140 of the Space Marine Codex, Fast Attack entry, Space Marine Bike Squad - Unit Composition 1 Biker Sergeant, 2 Space Marine Bikers.

Now tell me in your backward understanding of 1) the basic paramaters of a language you speak, or type, well,enough to understand, 2) the rules as stated in said codex and 3) that your ignorance of checking said rules makes you look like a fool?

also I made the comparison of 3 bolterbikers versus 5man sniper squad (could give camo cloaks for the 3+ cover or a 6th scout... but to show my point, i'll keep the undercosted squad);

where the bikes have 6 twin-linked BS4 str 4 shots at 1"-12" (minimum distance away from an enemy model outside CC is 1", another rule i think you ignore) and 3 TL-BS4 at 12.00...01"-24", where as the scouts have 4 sniper shots at bs3 and 1 at bs4 that rends and wounds on a 4+ or str3 against vehicles.. at 36"

now lets compare shall we?

against a marine your bikes at close range will have 5.333(t3dp) hits, 2.667(t3dp) wounds and 1.778 deaths, at range 2.5(really 2.49recuring but at 3dps its 2.5) hits, 1.25 wounds, 0.833(t3dp) deaths

sniper 2.667(you know the drill) hits, 1.333 wounds (0.222 of them rending=death), 0.9 deaths (or 1.122 with the rend)

against AV

you needs 6's to glance AV10, so do snipers, but we get the bonus rend, so at 6 a guaranteed glance and a 0.667 chance to pen.

at AV11(basic rhino) you cant touch them, i have a chance (a slim one yes but better odds than your 0%) to glance on 0.667 and pen on 0.333, and against av12 glance on 0.333

so at your basic squad and my basic squad we have equal chance to do the same amount of damage.. if not more so with the snipers



at your 220pt squad, i can field 15 snipers at 5pts more.. have 3 scoring units , 3 seperate targets and dont have to rely on the 6" melta window you have (sure 12" with MM, but the rest of your guns lose the shine they do at a closer range. but to put myself within 12" of a dread at 220pts, i'd sure as hell hope i blow it up, or you will be losing that squad in its turn from shooting and charging you.


so that is why i say snipers are a better bet than what you proposed, because with the same points cost, i CAN pull off more

[Kelanen]

I would say that all bike lists are probably one of the top 3 vanilla marine lists.

Yes, I think that's probably true, but since only two of them are vaguely competitive (and it's a mediocre codex even then) that's not saying much is it?

Khan is nice, and fluffy, but combat tactics can be really potent. Voluntarily falling back to get out of assault is nice for bikes.

Agreed. If Khan were free (or even same cost as a Captain) it would be a tough call still. My take is that the Khan makes you better at what you shouldn't be doing anyway, whilst the Combat Tactics helps when an opponent wrongfoots you and gets you into assault.

Captain route is better, which is galling when the Captain is so lacklustre. That alone is a microcosm of the mediocrity of various options being compared.

Page 140 of the Space Marine Codex, Fast Attack entry, Space Marine Bike Squad - Unit Composition 1 Biker Sergeant, 2 Space Marine Bikers.

Without being a mindreader I'd say that Freman was almost certainly taking into consideration that you have to have 5 bikes to be scoring. Non-scoring bikes should NEVER be taken.

I'm a fan of Snipers, but equally if they weren't scoring you'd never take those either. The comparison was thus one min sized scoring unit vs another. That said I think it's kind of an apples to oranges comparison...

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Page 140 of the Space Marine Codex, Fast Attack entry, Space Marine Bike Squad - Unit Composition 1 Biker Sergeant, 2 Space Marine Bikers.

Now tell me in your backward understanding of 1) the basic paramaters of a language you speak, or type, well,enough to understand, 2) the rules as stated in said codex and 3) that your ignorance of checking said rules makes you look like a fool?

As someone who actually plays the army, I know that your minimum bike squad if you want to take them as troops with a biker boss, is five models.

That's a minimum of 140 points, but realistically you're not going to take them without two meltaguns and an attack bike. Four models with an attack bike are 185 points, but they die pretty quickly, which is why I prefer five bikes and an attack bike for 220 (quad melta).

For someone who doesn't do mind reading Kelanen is pretty good at it.

My five man scout squads are 100 points with sniper rifles, cloaks and a heavy weapon. Two of them are about the same cost as one bike squad, and for objective sitting they're better, but as I've said, bikes are frontline troops.

Kelanen is also quite correct about the weaknesses of the list, and the Codex it's built on, but as someone who only started playing Space Marines so I could play a bike list I'm sticking with them. That said, a few more assault marines and I can build a Blood Rodeo with jump packs and bikes.

[Chaos257]

Why put melta on them ? Why can't they just be used for long range bolta fire ? Attack bike with multi melta should be enough. Although what is wrong with heavy bolter ?

For anti-tank there are better choices, but what about anti infantry ? Say your auto cannons take out the rhino, then you've got a bike squad shooting at a 6 inch movement marine squad that can kite them and still use heavy weapons. The marine squad might not even get to return fire depending on how they're armed. I agree if they're stationary that the heavy weapons will be an issue.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Because melta reliably kills tanks and heavy infantry (like Paladin). Autocannon and rocket launchers stun and immobilise easily, but that lack of the +1 on the damage table counts against them. There is no opportunity cost to taking melta because the bike still has its twin-linked bolters.

Heavy bolters don't get taken because they're not multi-meltas. They're good at one thing, killing infantry, and for that you have twin-linked bolters. They can't kill tanks, and in the 5th edition meta you need all the anti-armour you can get.

[Bartali]

Page 140 of the Space Marine Codex, Fast Attack entry, Space Marine Bike Squad - Unit Composition 1 Biker Sergeant, 2 Space Marine Bikers.

Now tell me in your backward understanding of 1) the basic paramaters of a language you speak, or type, well,enough to understand, 2) the rules as stated in said codex and 3) that your ignorance of checking said rules makes you look like a fool?

:facepalm:

Anyhoo, I don't like biker armies. They ideally want to be <12" from their opponent, thus oppening themselves up to being shot or assaulted. They also have bad match-ups - generally anything that isn't mech.