It's really not. It's a solid list but not overpowered. It is, however, bloody good fun to play with
It's really not. It's a solid list but not overpowered. It is, however, bloody good fun to play with
It happened 15-20 years ago...Originally Posted by Chaos257
There are currently 15 legal codexes, 7 of those are MEQ (Marine EQuivalent: T4, 3+ save), Necrons were until the recent new codex (and still half are) and SoB are closest to MEQ. Over half of the the codexes are thus MEQ.
However those 15 codexes are not even close to equally competitive, and most Xenos are short changed in that respect. Only the most recent two - Dark Eldar and Necrons are in the running, and they both lag behind (DE being a good metagame choice at present). The Tier 1 armies are Grey Knights, Blood angels, Space Wolves and Imperial Guard. 75% of those are MEQ, and they obviously have a disproportionately high showing competitively, whereas you won't see Tau, or SoB, for example.
There's also the armies that people are drawn to - most people start with SM, because it's forgiving, and also available in every starter set. Lots of people play it, so lots more join it. Various flavours of SM have always been in teh majority, even going back to RT (which I've played from release).
There are some armies like Nids and Orks which are quite popular at casual level, but are almost non-existent at competitive level - they just don't hold up.
The competitive scene is typically 70-80% MEQ, my home casual scene is 100% MEQ other than me. This isn't unusual.
As such, if you are building a competitive army you are concerned with MEQ, MSU and mechanisation - most armies you face will have most of those traits. If you can beat those, the rest of the field really doesn't count for much.
Of course that's where it's ripe for a metagame list outside these factors (which DE does to some extent), but for the most part, most attempts to buck the trend will do worse than going with it.
No, it's long way from BA's best list, let alone a good one in the metagame. It's a Tier 2 list at best.
I'm afraid a lot of your comments show you play in quite a casual environment. The Blood Rodeo list is reasonable, but there's easily 8-10 archetypes out there which are more common, and far more powerful. If this seems powerful to you, then think how they would be...
Kelanen
Bikes with multi-melta.plasma can kit short range marine squads.
Agree with the above. Most of the tourneys I have played in have rules and comp scores to stop power gaming.
Then those tourney's are meaningless in the competitive sense. Competition is ONLY about powergaming - that's the whole point. I get that some don't like that kind of game, but then tournaments (or other competitive gaming) are not for them.
Comp scoring is an abomination that never got used much over here and has mostly died everywhere now. If you want that environment, play casually at club level, not in tournaments.
Kelanen
Its funny. After the Necron release, the local metagame has really opened up. Since 5th has come out, the local meta was pretty much full of bandwagon codex jumpers. The one exception was the Nid dex (which lead to a longer reign of Space Wolves), and ironiclly the Necron codex. When the Necron dex didnt come out broken, many of the bandwagoners actually went back to older codex'es.
This has led to a wide variety of Armies being represented. They also opened up Forge World models to be used, which also added some power to certain armies. Throw in die hard Nid and Ork players who play thier army regardless, and you never know what you will run up against in our shop.
If you want to run a tournament with modified rules to try and fix game balance issues I don't see the problem. It can be just as competitive, just with a different set of rules to the general game to make it more interesting/varied (I wonder if a good rule of thumb might be to give non-imperial armies 10% more points, and another 1% more points (regardless of wether imperial or not) for every year since your codex release. Probably would be better just to balance it on a case by case basis)
Mark.
P.S. On topic, the problem is that bikers don't come in metal boxes so they die to S8 AP3 pie-plates and assaults by things with power weapons, whereas the mighty Rhino makes the regular marines immune (or at least gives them a turns grace so they get to make the first effective attack). Even if you "pop" a rhino with shooting, the marines can pile out of the other side to prevent you assaulting, or sit in the wreckage meaning you strike last as non-marines don't all have assault grenades.
Necrons NOT broken? you can field 5 AV13's in 1k.. and make ridiculous lists that just own people. hell "I" can make broken lists with necrons and I don't even know whats good to take with them.
like Deathmarks of Despair... take 2 squads of DM, 2 royal court harbingers of despair, and you have a str8 ap1 flamer that auto-hits, wounding on 2's, tell me that isnt broken?
just made a 1k list of the above DespairMarks in nightscythes, 2 warriors in ghost ark and lord in command barge with warcythe... and that is 990pts...
ok maybe you didnt have bandwagoners on release.. but by now i'm guessing there are more necron players than before right?
So you are suggesting that Tau players in 1750 tournament, in the way you phrased it, get 2030 points, that is not fair at all.. as they can use the extra points to tailor their list even more to be AT.
and you are screwing over SoB... as if anything, would need the extra points just to compete.
LMAO - year ok, whatever mate, if by competitive you mean "play grey knights or whichever codex is OP at the time"
OR I could play in heaps of tourneys which DO have COMP score which do have sportsmanship and are a hell of a lot of fun... without having to play grey knights or sw or whatever flavour of the month codex.
You can "power game" ie. make the most of a codex within a given theme, or you can PowerGame by using the most under-costed, over-powered codex du jour. Your pick really.
I, personally, prefer the one with the quotation marks. I can play a serious game of warhammer without having to resort to buying a new army or proxying my Marines as something they're not. You can be competitive even within a theme, not just AS competitive as if you forgot all about restrictions and went for what gives you the best guarantees for victory. But this is an eternal debate and ultimately comes down to personal preference. "Some like mothers, others like daughters..." As the saying goes.
But as for bikes, they are shooty first and foremost. The whole point of bikes is Relentless and that skill is only worth it for shooting. Sure, you can do a move, rapid-fire and assault, but that should only be done if the odds are heavily in your favour. You're paying Terminator-level points for your bikes, but their durability is nowhere near that.
The only other time bikes might want to be in combat is if you form a killer command squad, but I don't like them as I generally feel that one unit assaulting is too little. I have issues with redundancy. (Did I mention I play IG and Eldar too? XD)
They are good, when used properly, but to a "balanced" army, I would take Scout bikers above normal ones for the one-trick-pony "Get first turn, turbo-scout, melta-bomb the sitting Land Raider to pieces, die" -combo. For a conventional, or 4th Ed Marine force, I feel Bikes do not fit any particular role that well. Highly mobile, but without massed firepower get isolated and targetted easily. A big unit costs too much and many units focuses too much on bikes. My suggestion hence is that you take about all bikes or none at all. Except assault bikes!
sure you can field grey knights, and when you win, sure you will get congratulated.
but there are others out there that field tau or tyranids (ok maybe not at adepticon, but since when is adpeticon the by all and end all of tournies?). I have seen chaos lists win tournies w/o the rhinospam and lash sorc/princes. he used bikes.. granted nurgle bikers, but hard to pull off nontheless. (also on topic for this thread.. i hate bikes but when chaos doesnt have scouts, i can abide them ;P)
Comp score helps and hinders competitions... on one hand you have a balanced friendly competition, where everyone has a fair chance to win, have fun, be sportsmanlike. But it also ruins competitions, as people have had to have a fully painted to a high quality army, spending months (or years in some cases) on getting details right, then min/maxing, learning to play their list.. playing a hundred games or more against others with similar cheesey broken lists, learning play styles of armies and what to expect in the meta of their area, and what to expect in the tournie they are attending, what past winners did to win, what scenarios that are likely to turn up and in what order.. are there restrictions liks 1hq and no heavy support allowed (wasnt a fun compo when chaos cant take oblits)...
and after all this, they turn up on the day.. and comp scores are there allowing a half painted army to win.
if there is money or a prize greater than a small trophy involved, comp scores should be left alone with.. or at least the competition be held over two days... first day is the fun friendly day.. second day is the serious players.
also back on topic... bikes suck and you take scouts hehe
You're right, which explains the preference for dual command squads (and Captains, obviously).
"Reason is a thing of God, inasmuch as there is nothing which God the Maker of all has not provided, disposed, ordained by reason - nothing which He has not willed should be handled and understood by reason" Quintus Tertullian
those av13 fall apart the second they take their first penetrating hit and aren't cheap
and your deathmark kill squads will be running you around 300 points which die after getting off one volley.
and you have no true anti-armour except for your lord, which, will be immobilized after his first sweep if your opponent is smart
tesla destructors will struggle to hurt anything harder than an ork trukk
your list falls to the classic rhino spam
Swift claws suffer a bit from really needing that priest or a fairly expensive wolf guard leader. The people that have success with them, seem to take at least a couple of big squads but that takes up enough points the rest of the list is fairly boring. Not the mention the elephant in the room.... if your looking for an assault unit out of your fast attack, TWC are really solid.
That command squad is nasty, i haven't beaten it with my wolves yet, but It doesn't show to often in tournies cause th & SS termies can wreck it.
you have long fangs right? shoot them with ML's, they are only T4... bye bye unit.
plus that unit at its cheapest is 605pts. 3x 6man, 5 ML long fangs are 420. how are you not killing that squad?
"those av13 fall apart the second they take their first penetrating hit and aren't cheap"
still need to get the pen.. str 8 does it on 4's.. 50% failure rate, and str 9 on 3's and not many lascannons in 1k or really want to waste those points on. and sure as hell very little str 10's around
and i lolled at the no anti-tank... ITS NECRONS THEY GLANCE ON 6'S!!!! dont have to wreck you.. immobilise is just enough
Last edited by Clarkson; 22-05-2012 at 03:08.
sorry, I have horrible luck with gauss, so much so that in the last 5 games I have played with 'crons I have only gotten 4 6's shooting with gauss weapons, so I have a bad habit of dismissing the gauss ability
Double check your rule on the flamer, yes it auto-hits, but doesn't wound most on 2's...
i did... HtH allows deathmarks and anyone attached to it wound on 2's against a marked unit... a rule that overrides the rolling to wound vs leadership of the despair dudes..
so who is wrong now compadre?Q: Do models from a Royal Court that are attached to a
Deathmark Squad benefit from the Hunters from
Hyperspace special rule? (p90)
A: Yes.
Last edited by Clarkson; 22-05-2012 at 04:15.
well it is really a rubbish extra ability as the amount of 6's you roll is few and far between.. but its a chance and 20 necrons within 12" of a vehicle have 40 chances to glance.. 7 glances and at least 1 immobolised and 2 weapon destroyed means that that tank is gone or just a box in the dirt
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