Does shooting really trump melee in fifth? Or...

[Dazza612]

Hehehe its a tourney player LOL, she's pretty Damn good. Got 1 win outta 6 games with her so far.
Just takes time.
I do jumper, fnp, the devs didn't do much.
Need my vindicator up and running.

Maybe it's in your deployment, oh and 1 tank in an army is not a good idea, her oblits will blow it up very very easily. If you go mech you go all mech. Plus a vindicator is a bad choice, if you really want tanks and don't like your devs then auto-cannon lascannon sponson preds are the next option. Also do you have a libby? Blood lance is a very very good power and shield will help you get into assault range and minimise some casualties if she uses a lot of plasm or melta. You may also try vanguard but keep them cheap, a power fist and lightning claw with two shields will hurt if your senwible about your placement. Just remember declare heroic intervention before lacing your one model.

[Chem-Dog]

In short, No Shooting doesn't trump Melee and it's hard for me to see why people would think that. I play a variety of armies, some rely on Shooting and some rely on getting in close. If you're a shooty guy, you have to make it count and get your licks in before the b*stards get into your lines, if you're assaulty, you have to take it on the chin as you close on them.
Problem is, these days there are too many ways to bypass that walk through the storm.

Melee has always been far more dangerous than shooting, bar a few mishaps with temperamental or inaccurate ranged attacks, Melee is the only situation where you stand to loose models in your own turn and, unless Melee becomes a system where only the player whose turn it is can attack, it will always be a more dangerous proposition.

[Phaeron Setek]

The concept of being inside an exploding transport and walking out has always pissed me off. Personally, I think that it should be a default that models are wounded on a 4+, with rending. That way here are some unfortunates who just wont ever see daylight again, and some get a chance to bail out.

Aside from wounds, being inside an exploding wreck should auto-pin once the unit bails out. A unit may be uber-badass, but they still have to stop drop and roll.

I like the idea of a unit having to bail out on a pen, but a more 'interesting' method might be to force an Ld test at the end of the phase. The unit inside has to make a leadership check at -1 per pen, and if they fail are forced out and auto-pinned.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

If we want to improve melee versus mech, we should allow units which wrecked or exploded a transport in close combat to pile-in against its contents.

[Chem-Dog]

The concept of being inside an exploding transport and walking out has always pissed me off. Personally, I think that it should be a default that models are wounded on a 4+, with rending. That way here are some unfortunates who just wont ever see daylight again, and some get a chance to bail out.

Aside from wounds, being inside an exploding wreck should auto-pin once the unit bails out. A unit may be uber-badass, but they still have to stop drop and roll.

I agree with the idea that being in a Vehicle when it explodes should be harmful but I don't think a blanket one-size-fits-all effect is the answer, it should be graded.

For example, one thing that should be factored in is Speed, if you're going flat out, even bailing out before the Kaboom is going to be potentially lethal. Being in a Vehicle that moves over, say, 12" should be roll a 1 or take a hit, moving sub 12" would be a 4+ and maybe only a 6+ on the occupants of a stationary vehicle.

There are ways to effectively score greater than 6 on the Vehicle Damage chart, this could be expanded.
Score 6 and you get the basic "Explodes" result score 7 and you get "Detonates" score an 8+ and you get a "Annihilated" result. Destroyed = s3 Explodes =S4 Detonates =S5 and Annihilated =S6.

So a Transport moving at 18" gets destroyed by an "Annihilated" result every model transported would be looking at a S6 hit on a 2+

If we want to improve melee versus mech, we should allow units which wrecked or exploded a transport in close combat to pile-in against its contents.

How about allowing models in a unit to split their attacks against a transport. The Stuff that can hurt a tank can be aimed AT the tank and the rest can be held back in case the vehicle gets blown up and used on the occupants (if not they've lost their chance to strike)?

I'd also consider giving attacks that "ignore armour" equivalence to Ap1, well some of them. Powerfists and the other heavy stuff, for example,maybe MC's and certainly Meltabombs.

[Baaltor]

The concept of being inside an exploding transport and walking out has always pissed me off. Personally, I think that it should be a default that models are wounded on a 4+, with rending. That way here are some unfortunates who just wont ever see daylight again, and some get a chance to bail out.

Aside from wounds, being inside an exploding wreck should auto-pin once the unit bails out. A unit may be uber-badass, but they still have to stop drop and roll.

I like the idea of a unit having to bail out on a pen, but a more 'interesting' method might be to force an Ld test at the end of the phase. The unit inside has to make a leadership check at -1 per pen, and if they fail are forced out and auto-pinned.

I like the adding rending onto the 4+ wound. Although maybe it should have a set strength if it rending? Actually, it'd be pretty funny if it's rending, pinning, and wounds on a 4+ (AKA: Sniper special rule) XD.

I'm not about the leadership on a pen thing for two reasons: It's pretty scary stuff to have a autocannon round enter your space, it doesn't get much worse I'd imagine. The second reason is I'm not too privy on how battlefield stuff works, it seems to me that bailing out because of penetrating might not only be because it's scary, but because you're supposed to and it's suicidal to not. I think we should go with whatever's realistic for that.

[Dazza612]

I think you guys are massively overcomplicating things. Game designers want to streamline games not make them harder and slower. I agree something. eeds to be done to tone down mech armies a little bit but it is in keeping with the fluff, every army uses a lot of their own tanks particularly marines. Personally it doesn't bother me too much though as I have psycannons or melta.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Personally it doesn't bother me too much though as I have psycannons...

Funny how Grey Knight players think there's nothing wrong with the rules as they are.

[Dazza612]

Funny how Grey Knight players think there's nothing wrong with the rules as they are.

Funny how being also a blood Angels player as well which you clearly missed and have loads of melta doesn't bother me either.

[hazmiter]

LOL, nah Gk, Ba and ig....... Apocalypse.......

[Dazza612]

Well actually grey knights, guard and tau that would be quite disgusting, you'd have the best mid-range and long-range shooting and the cheapest shooting.

[Faeslayer]

I play Orks, and the only time I feel I'm on even footing is in Apocalypse games... because of the shooting I can bring in Apocalypse games.

[Bunnahabhain]

I think you guys are massively overcomplicating things. Game designers want to streamline games not make them harder and slower.

This is true for most games companies, and the GW specialist games division. However, 40k and Fantasy are bloated awkward monstrosities, that pile special rule on rule and exception. If this is due to the ineptness of the writers, the constant changes of writers and direction with a slow codex release cycle, direction from higher up, or all of them, I'm not sure.

[Dazza612]

I'm noticing a trend in a number of posts and that's coming from ork or nid players, unfortunately these struggle against top armies and competitive gaming. I don't think it's a good thing just the way it is.

[hazmiter]

Agreed, even my blood angels can out cc my mates orks..... Oh wait, they have power armour vs clothing.....
My imperial guard can out cc his boys....... My bad, furious charge from creed.
Damn it!!!!!

[Dazza612]

I don't know the ork codex well but they don't seem to have a reliable powerful long range gun. Otks hurt thing in cc but they rely on weight of numbrs to do it. Most armies have enough armies to wittle them down till they aren't a threat. Guard have the long range shooting, massed shooting and with the psykers they can reduce their leadership enough they can run them off the board with ease.

[Dazza612]

By the way hazmiter if you're struggling against mech chaos with your BA use your mech guard and she'll hate you!!

[hazmiter]

Oh she hates basilisks and leman russes, as well as mortars.

[Shadow Lord]

Orcs are Orcs, so they shouldn't at all be relaible shooters at long range. They should be the raving melee nutcrackers the fluff has them pictured. They can lay down massive fire power, but only hitting on a 5+ isn't reliable indeed...if you want reliable fire power, don't play Orcs...
Problem for Orcs is to get into melee against an overwhelming majority of IG or SM-chapters, which isn't at all easy. Footslogging vs the current meta-MEQ armies and the awesome gunline IG have is neigh impossible without alot of casualties. Then even in melee their only true chance lies in charging (furious charge) and hopefully don't break them in 1 turn of CC or they get shot to pieces by the remaining fire power.
5th edition wanted vehicles to play at the forefront of every army (because they weren't that good in 4th and didn't sell all too well), but if you don't want to play that type of army or your current codex doesn't support this kind of army, then you're screwed over! Melee in 5th is still a very good prospect for most armies because they have very good vehicles or other means (drop pod/deep strike) to get their CC-specialists where they're needed. Those who can't/won't will struggle against these type of armies at every turn. Even footslogging GK's will be blown away by a good IG-gunline. If they're in a Stormraven or they are in your face with a Landraider you can't bring down, well...then even the IG gunline will get ripped a new one...

[greenmtvince]

I'd actually make the argument that it has more to do with true LoS than with shooty vehicles. Its really hard to hide things, and the benefits of terrain (cover) are counteracted by the disadvantages (moving slower). As good as a 4+ save is, its not nearly as good as old area terrain rules preventing them from getting fired at in the first place. I like to read battle reports from the tournies I can't afford to go to , and Nova was really interesting because a lot of players complained there was too much LoS blocking terrain (just read an interesting blog article about it), and lot of the more spamming netlists (razor spam, leafblower) didn't do very well.

This.

Plus old vehicle damage probabilities would go a long way to balancing everything and less melta spam.

I personally like the emphasis on mech and shooting. It's a sci-fi combat game.