Which Race Was The Most Technologically Advanced At Their Peak?

[insectum7]

Is this what you're thinking of?

'...their technology, although idiosyncratic, is superior to that of any other race, including the Eldar.'
Battlefleet Gothic Armada, pg.72 / Battlefleet Gothic Magazine #2, pg.7

That's exactly the one, yes. I remember using it in an older debate, just didn't have the time to rummage through my pdfs. Thanks for posting it.

Huh, it just dawned on me that wraithguard/lords and necrons aren't that dissimilar. Artificial constructs holding a former biological intelligence divorced from its meat sack.

In a fundamental sense that's kinda true. The real evidence for the technology of the Necrons is in the details that no other race really comes close to. The self repairing, the cross-dimensional phase out, the "theoretically impossible" weapons in which every molecule is in the exact location it needs to be. Eldar psychoplastics, projected monofilament and the infinity circut are incredibly cool, but the block of stone that can grow itself into a Monolith and start an invasion if it taps a source of energy is a clear step beyond, IMO.

For me it will always be the Orks. Despite how silly and crude their technology is, the Orks could create anything out of anything. They could make gigantic tanks out of scrap metals and perform complex surgery that no other race could do.

I think it's always a bit funny how Orks are left in the sidelines in these debates. I don't really see them as an honest contender but the knowledge, technology and even foresight required to create the Orks was obviously pretty remarkable.

[Kaapeli]

1. Old Ones
2. Necrons
3. Eldar
4. Dark Age of Techology humans
5. Tau
6. Orks

I'm not 100% on the position of Eldar below Necrons. Their technology is different but not necessarily less sophisticated. They could actually share the 2. place.

The Tau are quickly catching up to the DAoT humans. They are still lacking several key technologies like STC, advanced AI, automation, warp travel, psychic tech, genetic engineering and cybernetics. These technologies are still below DAoT human standards but perhaps in a couple of hundred years Tau might have mastered them already.

[eldargal]

That is really subjective though, not to mention it is based on a far greater knowledge of Necron tech than we have of Eldar Empire. I know you said IMO so I'm not calling you out on it, just pointing out that it comes down to preferences. For me the melding of technology and psychic power and the achievements of the Eldar Empire (not to mention the fact the Necrons decided it was better to sleep until the Empire fell rather than attck it) points to the Eldar Empire tech being on the same level as Necron.

In a fundamental sense that's kinda true. The real evidence for the technology of the Necrons is in the details that no other race really comes close to. The self repairing, the cross-dimensional phase out, the "theoretically impossible" weapons in which every molecule is in the exact location it needs to be. Eldar psychoplastics, projected monofilament and the infinity circut are incredibly cool, but the block of stone that can grow itself into a Monolith and start an invasion if it taps a source of energy is a clear step beyond, IMO..

[Lupe]

For me the melding of technology and psychic power and the achievements of the Eldar Empire (not to mention the fact the Necrons decided it was better to sleep until the Empire fell rather than attck it) points to the Eldar Empire tech being on the same level as Necron.

The thing is, there are countless examples even in real life when the side with the advantage of superior technology was defeated by low tech opponents who just stacked enough other advantages to compensate.

In this particular case, though, I have a feeling that the Necrons weren't really concered with Eldar tech (which was probably still a fraction of what they would have at their peak), more with their incipient psychic power, the Korks' raw numbers and savagery, and who knows what other races were still opposing them at the time. Remember that the Old Ones created more than just the Eldar to combat the Necron threat, after all...

However, I strongly agree that technology should count as technology, even if it's tailored around the Eldar's psychic powers. After all, the whole point of technology is to make life simpler for its users. If a hammer can be activated through thought alone, why bother grabbing it firmly with your right hand and swinging it?

[insectum7]

That is really subjective though, not to mention it is based on a far greater knowledge of Necron tech than we have of Eldar Empire. I know you said IMO so I'm not calling you out on it, just pointing out that it comes down to preferences. For me the melding of technology and psychic power and the achievements of the Eldar Empire (not to mention the fact the Necrons decided it was better to sleep until the Empire fell rather than attck it) points to the Eldar Empire tech being on the same level as Necron.

I would be more inclined to agree if it weren't stated flat out that Necron technology is currently superior to Eldar technology, and was in the past superior to the technology of the Old Ones. (thanks again to Damocles for the exact references)

There is room for conjecture about Eldar technology reaching some higher peak during the time of their empire, but it makes the assumption that Eldar technology became more advanced than that of the Old Ones, which wouldn't necessarily be a safe bet. I also think that it would be strange for the Craftworlds to not represent peak or near-peak technological achievements, or at least carry within them vast repositories of technological knowledge from their empire, either through the Circuit or by way of advanced libraries (such as the Black Library).

I think the thing the Eldar empire did have at it's height was the tremendous infrastructure required to construct greater feats of technology. All the sort of star-destroying, warp-powered things which are alluded to from time to time were maybe only made possible because of multi-planetary/system/sector involvement. I think it's also important to note that the Eldar revere ancient artifacts like the Talismans of Vaul as being achievements of incredible power. Yet many of those artifacts would appear to date back to the War in Heaven, a time at which Necron technology is declared as being superior. So if the Eldar revere artifacts created by the Old Ones to be of superior make, and at the same time Necron technology was greater than the works of the Old Ones, it would seem that the Eldar would have to settle with 2nd place.

That said, the Eldar are certainly the most sophisticated mixed-tech race, using real world sciences as well as warp related technologies. It would just seem that when it comes to technology derived from the hard sciences, it's Necrons all the way.

[librerian_samae]

I would say it's Pre fall Eldar and Necrons fighting for the top closely followed by DaoT humans.

In my opinion the Daot humans came REALLY close to pipping the post for number one, hell they were almost a post scarcity society, and that's incredibly impressive.
Imagine if the men of iron hadn't rebelled en mass (as an aside this seems to be some subtle universal malaise and corruption rather than poor programming/fore thought considering how often that kind of thing crops up with tech and AI) and the psyker boom that attracted the second enslaver plague. If it hadn't been for these at almost the same time they would have been capable of incredible things!

Anyway enough of the maybes and what ifs. I also have an honourable for the demiurge, as they seem to pretty much fit post scarcity from what we can tell of them from whats written.
Mineral and energy harvesting from space derbies and cosmic clouds etc yum yum.

[eldargal]

Necron technology is superior to current Eldar technology, of that there is no dount. But we aren't comparing it to current Eldar tech. As I said, we don't know enough about Eldar Empire tech but they had tens of millions of years to build on what the Old Ones left behind.

We don't know enough about Eldar Empire and Old One tech to make a judgement. But Craftworlds certainly are NOT reflective of the pre-Fall civilizations achievements, they have lost a great deal of knowledge. The Dark Eldar maintain a lot of it, but not all, but they in turn lack all that relies on psychic energy as they have had to repress that element of their psyche.

The War in Heaven is by no means certain in canon anymore. The Eldar mythological version may well be back to what it was before the Necrons were akwardly and offensivley shoehorned into it. I say this becaus according to the new book no such war took place between the Necrontyr and the Eldar. The Necrons went into hibernation to AVOID the war. So just because they revere a piece of Old One technology is really here nor there, it may or may not be more primitive than Eldar Empire tech, but the Eldar would have no more idea than us as so much knowledge has been lost. Remember even the Fall is semi-mythologised by the Eldar 'today'.

Hard science is a false distinction in a world where the warp is a very real thing, but we've been over that. I personally put Eldar Empire tech on a similar level to Necron tech in terms of sophistication and capabilities, but it is by no means certain. Prior to the current Necron codex certainly it would have been Necron, but much of what that was based on has been retconned.

[MyNameDidntFit]

'...their technology, although idiosyncratic, is superior to that of any other race, including the Eldar.'
Battlefleet Gothic Armada, pg.72 / Battlefleet Gothic Magazine #2, pg.7

That sure does seem rather concrete now, doesn't it...


As far as the "Necrons avoided the Eldar, thus they were weaker/less advanced" argument, it really falls a bit ambiguously when you consider the scope of the war with the C'tan that the Necrons had just weathered.

[eldargal]

Necron superiority to current M41 technologies has always been concrete.

Everything about this argument is ambiguous. We know next to nothing about Eldar Empire technology, we know next to nothing of Old One technology and the new Necron codex changes a lot about them as well which impacts on their previously waterright claim to technological superiority against the Eldar Empire. Yes they just came out of a terrible war with the C'tan, but in this very thread people have lauded their amazing self repair/reconstruction technology, growing monoliths out of rocks and such. So why did such an advanced race choose to hide unti lthe Eldar Empire collapsed on its own (not a criticism, perfectly sensible tactic) and avoid a confrontation entirely, rather than simply rebuild, reconstruct and take on the Eldar Empire with their superior technology? At the very least it implies that they may not have been confident enough in their superiority that it could see them through such a war.

[Poseidal]

That's talking about the now. We have no idea what happened in the time in-between.

[Kaapeli]

Superior technology doesn't necessarily promise victory. Every player who's been beaten by Orks knows this.

Necrons didn't and propably still don't have the numbers to challenge inferior races openly. They're waiting for something and perhaps that something is the fall of the Imperium, return of C'tan or whatever.

[librerian_samae]

The current necron dex talks of cryptecs fighting over recources when discussing royal courts, saying it was this way even pre bio transference so we can safely say not post scarcity.

Prefall eldar were most definately post scarcity going so far as being able to on a society scale dedicate enough time to create a god of decedance!

So really both can be said to be pretty near the top of their respective tech and science trees, its just that each has a seemingly vastly diffrent starting point focus, necrons war and medical, pre fall eldar self sustaining inferstructure and lesuire pursuits.

In the end we can never really compare the two without having the two being allowed to coexist and interact as rough equals. Of course if this were to happen both cultures would enevitable furthure influence each others speed/level of advancement.

[El_Machinae]

That might be the difference, what happened post-scarcity. Once they achieved the levels required to never need to work again, did either race continue to exponentially increase their technological prowess?

[Lord Damocles]

The War in Heaven is by no means certain in canon anymore. The Eldar mythological version may well be back to what it was before the Necrons were akwardly and offensivley shoehorned into it. I say this becaus according to the new book no such war took place between the Necrontyr and the Eldar. The Necrons went into hibernation to AVOID the war. So just because they revere a piece of Old One technology is really here nor there, it may or may not be more primitive than Eldar Empire tech, but the Eldar would have no more idea than us as so much knowledge has been lost. Remember even the Fall is semi-mythologised by the Eldar 'today'.

The account of the War in Heaven in the 4th ed. Codex: Eldar (ie. well post C'tan expansion in Codex: Necrons) is exactly the same as the account from the 2nd ed. Codex: Eldar.

In fact, the term 'The War in Heaven' wasn't even mentioned in the 3rd ed. Codex: Necrons.


The 5th ed. Codex: Necrons doesn't go into any detail about the Necrons/C'tan figting the Eldar, but in the account of the War in Heaven (pg.7), the conflict is mentioned (second sentance under 'The Great Sleep').
There's no reason to believe that the account of the war from the previous Codex: Necrons and other sources should have been totally written out of history.


Admittedly, the inclusion of ther term 'War in Heaven' when refering to the conflict(s) between the Necrontyr and Old Ones and C'tan/Necrons and Old Ones/Young Races in the 5th ed. Codex: Necrons is annoying (not to say unecessary), but that's what the vast majority of people used the term to refer to anyway (So it's all your faults )

[Poseidal]

Superior technology doesn't necessarily promise victory. Every player who's been beaten by Orks knows this.

Necrons didn't and propably still don't have the numbers to challenge inferior races openly. They're waiting for something and perhaps that something is the fall of the Imperium, return of C'tan or whatever.

I would personally rate Orks just behind the Eldar. The Orks have a few things that exceed almost anyone, but in general Eldar and Necron are probably have a better all-round portfolio.

[Idaan]

The current necron dex talks of cryptecs fighting over recources when discussing royal courts, saying it was this way even pre bio transference so we can safely say not post scarcity.

Prefall eldar were most definately post scarcity going so far as being able to on a society scale dedicate enough time to create a god of decedance!

Craftworlds started out as trade vessels. A post-scarcity society doesn't need trade. And the term itself is pretty meaningless, because it's pretty hard to predict changes in society and technology. Modern western world would seem post-scarcity to anyone from medieval ages, because we can all afford a certain standard of living and have no shortages of food and other basic products. Yet there's clearly a scarcity of things that weren't even conceived of back then. So yeah.

[El_Machinae]

We're not post-scarcity, because we still need to work to get our essential living materials (though it's become a small portion of our total spending). Post-scarcity scrambling for resources is likely an offensive or defensive game - that you're afraid that the other is going to try to talk your stuff, and so you compete for stuff you both don't technically 'need'.

[TheDungen]

Where did we find that the necrotyr was more advanced than the old ones, i rememebr the old ones kicked their asses before the necrotyr made their deal with the c'tan.
The it wasnt reallt necron tech then it was the c'tan's inherent domination over the physiclka universe that won against the old ones. and even then they only killed their bodies and the old ones lived on in the warp. How is the necrons more advanced than that?

The old ones isnt even playing in the same field. While the necrons run aroudn playign with dimensiosn and manipulating single atoms the old ones are exploring other planes of existence. Traveling to alternate universes (that what the warhammer world is hinted to be in WH FB 6th edition) and stuff like that.

While the necrons are no doubt advanced the old ones have reached a level where their tech is indistinguishable from magic even to the necrons.

[Stonerhino]

Their [Necrontyr] superior technology was consistently outmanoeuvred by the Old Ones thanks to their mastery of the webway portals.

That idea has been around for a while now.

And as far as the Old Ones use of the warp being beyond the Necrons. The Necrons built the pylons on Cadia and a few other planets that keeps the Eye of Terror in check. They have planet wide null fields and with the help of the C'Tan breached the webway itself.

As far as the Old Ones just going into the warp. That's not possible because the C'Tan killed outright them even their soul:

Then came Kaelis Ra, the Death-bringer. Its rampage stained the stars with blood, and none could stand against it, for it wielded the power of death itself. Populations fell before its scythe, its very gaze slew even the greatest of Eldar heroes. Those that died lost everything, even their souls.

[Drasanil]

As far as the Old Ones just going into the warp. That's not possible because the C'Tan killed outright them even their soul:

That would be poetic licence. Souls are warp joo-joo which the C'tan have no ability to manipulate or consume.