Which Race Was The Most Technologically Advanced At Their Peak?

[ChaplainCharlie]

It wasn't an auto-win, even if it had succeeded, no, but if we're measuring technology here, I believe it should count. They built it, test-fired it and it worked. At least the first go, if I recall correctly. Then it just got caught up in some minor brawl that would be the splintering of the Machine Cult and got swallowed by a volcano, but who cares for small stuff, eh?

And we were not talking about "stupid things" here now were we? We were compairing technology. A technology that allows for the "instantaneous" adaption of basically all knowledge in the universe ranks pretty high on my list. Sure it had many complications, but in regards to a technological singularity, that's as close as any race has gotten. And even if the Mechanicum had managed to tap into all this information, it would stil have taken lots of time to actually manufacture anything of it and then conquer the galaxy.
And as history has proven, technology does not guarantee victory. Tau have noticed that too many times by now, I believe...

Consider either the Eldar or the Necrons. Both are just ancient races that have had lots more time to gather their tech. Humanity, still a fledgeling at the time and still is in comparison, had technology that would have helped it put the technology those two ancient races had spent literally millions of years perfecting to shame in a matter of years had the Akashic reader been put to use. Still, the most interesting point in the story is that this all-knowledge was shunned and feared, because invetion and modification had already at that time become heretical acts of treason.

Although, from a fluff perspective, it was never unveiled where this information actually came from. Was it perhaps only the Void Dragon that they tapped into? In that case, they would have only gotten C'tan level tech, which the Necrons already posessed...

[Xisor]

At least the first go, if I recall correctly. Then it just got caught up in some minor brawl that would be the splintering of the Machine Cult and got swallowed by a volcano, but who cares for small stuff, eh?
<snip>
Although, from a fluff perspective, it was never unveiled where this information actually came from. Was it perhaps only the Void Dragon that they tapped into? In that case, they would have only gotten C'tan level tech, which the Necrons already posessed...

Spot on. Well, certainly valid points.

I have something of a conspiracy/crackpot theory on it, so do have your tinfoil hat ready: the Thrones aren't C'tan-origin.

The Emperor's Golden Throne, the discovery of the Webway, the retreat from the Crusade - they all tie with... psychic stuff. The same applies with the Silver Throne in Faith and Fire (enhances psychic ability, moving someone from 'not a psyker' to 'pretty much alpha plus'), as well as the Ork Throne in Headhunted (hook up wyrdboyz makes the warboss who sits on it super-psychic).

This is the same rough format as the Akashic Reader in Mechanicum - gold, big seat, hooked up to hundreds of psykers, enhanced the person who sat on it.

Similarly with Malcador's fate - sit on the throne, hundreds of psykers needed to stabilise, Emperor eventually can't leave.

Anyway, the whole point of this is that I think the Akashic Reader is pretty obviously reverse engineered. In fact, I'm sure Adept Koriel Zeth says as much - found under a caldera in North Africa.

In my estimation the Thrones are all imperfect, not easily replicated or repeated feats marking the very top of human ambition. The Emperor retreated from the Crusade to study them, afterall. They're still... in development. Even ten- or thirty-thousand years later. But that's a blink of an eye in the ongoing storm of the war between the C'tan and the rest of existence.

Edit: To come full circle and agree again - yep, humanity's doing very well to even be probing at Eldar/Necron levels. That said, there could be good reasons why the Eldar and Necrons don't build Akashic Readers (or other thrones) and use them. Or why 'certain factions' prevent their use.

[The Red Pilgrim]

It didn't work, though, so it doesn't matter. I've not read Mechanicum but that is an offensively stupid idea regardless of which race invented it.

So Dark Eldar transporting stars around in boxes the size of an iPod nano; and Necrons having a "kill switch" for the universe are perfectly kosher.. But humanity tapping into the warp - or more specifically, what I assume is Tzeentch himself - to learn everything that has been, and will be, is "offensively stupid"? Really?

If anything, in this setting - as it's technology that channels "magic" - it doesn't seem quite that outlandish.

[Poseidal]

So Dark Eldar transporting stars around in boxes the size of an iPod nano; and Necrons having a "kill switch" for the universe are perfectly kosher.. But humanity tapping into the warp - or more specifically, what I assume is Tzeentch himself - to learn everything that has been, and will be, is "offensively stupid"? Really?

If anything, in this setting - as it's technology that channels "magic" - it doesn't seem quite that outlandish.

Speaking technically, the Necron "Kill Switch for the universe" and the "Learn Everything" box are all encompassing things and overblown in a "The Whole Universe is gonna die!" way. Stars, while large and containing a lot of energy and quantifiable so capturing one is (infinitely) not on the same level.

The Dark Eldar box is therefore not in the same level or ridiculousness as the other two.

Secondly, I don't think Tzeentch knows everything otherwise his parts wouldn't be searching for more knowledge, and he's insane.

[Lord Damocles]

It should also be noted that we have no idea how the Celestial Orrery works.

For all we know, the device itself doesn't kill stars, but dispatches a fleet which does it (which isn't to say that star-killing ships aren't technologically impressive, but still...)

[ChaplainCharlie]

Wasn't there a book, Fateweaver, if I remember it correctly, where a Tzeentchian demon was supposedly the knower of all things and their fates, yet unable to discern his own?

However, knowing all things in advance is kinda dull, because logically if you knew everything in advance you'd either become the ruler of all things, which Tzeentch is not, or you would become a slave to fate, following it to the letter and thus become a real-life "self-fufilling prophecy"...

[Xisor]

Again, the major problem with The Akashic Reader is control. Same with going 'anywhere in space and time', indexing it is pretty significant and not negligible task. With the Akashic Reader, knowing how to make sense of it is pretty significant a task in itself. You could spend a hell of a lot of time peering sifting through photon configurations during a trillion, trillion years of heat-death. Getting "what are the lottery numbers/army movements/fleet changes tomorrow?" out of an entire universe's worth of information is not an easy thing. Even if you can access it stably without killing yourself (which the Akashic Reader coudln't do), there's no telling whether it'll be easy or impossible to use.

However, knowing all things in advance is kinda dull, because logically if you knew everything in advance you'd either become the ruler of all things, which Tzeentch is not, or you would become a slave to fate, following it to the letter and thus become a real-life "self-fufilling prophecy"...

Why not be one and the same - ruler of all things but a slave to fate. Sounds very Tzeentchian, very Chaotic.

Yep, Kairos Fateweaver is a daemon of immense power, but unknowing of his own fate. Though the 'fate of a daemon' is a very peculiar thing itself.

[El_Machinae]

Well, becoming a master of space and time would be 'dull', in the the struggles of beings like humans become nearly meaningless. However, it might transition you to a universal scale populated by a new set of beings (also masters of space and time) with their own set of struggles and concerns. There's always a bigger fish

[ChaplainCharlie]

Or it would just make you incredibly bored...

But back onto topic, I still believe that the Akhasic Reader is on-par with the greatest inventions of other races. However, it is a singular piece of equipment and does not reflect the technological capabilities of the race in general. However, The Emperor did manage to construct his own portion of WebWay, so we could say that the Imperium of Man was more advanced (partially) than what Eldar are now. To my best knowledge, the webway is not repairable to them, because they either don't really know how or lack the resources.

[eldargal]

The implication is that they lack the resources not the capacity, there are references to repaired segments in Path of the Warrior (or Atlas Infernal? I forget). It should also be noted that the human-made section shattered due to a powerful communication spell which MAY indicate it was more fragile/less permanent than the rest of it. Note I said may, we do not know for sure. Regardless it is still explicitly states that Eldar technology is vastly more advanced than that of the Imperium. We also have much more knowledge of Imperium tech than we do Eldar.

[MyNameDidntFit]

From what I understand from the description in A Thousand Sons, Magnus breeched the webway a substantial distance from Terra with assistance from a certain warp entity, so it seems that the webway is vulnerable to such damage no matter who made the section in question.

I've always thought that the main blocker stopping the Eldar reparations of the webway as the combination of resources and the substantial danger involved in fixing something that the warp bleeds directly into.

[ChaplainCharlie]

Yeah, the webway is halfway through the warp and realspace, but as long as the "tube" is unconnected, it is vulnerable. That is at least how I understand it. Hence, the section made by mankind or the Emperor was destroyed and infested by demons because it was unfinished. Had it had an exit, it would have been sustainable. Isn't the Golden Throne in place just to keep the remnants of the webway under check by providing a barrier against the demons?

[LordLucan]

The Emperor's webway lacked the runic defences the rest oft he webway naturally has, and thus relied upon the Emperor directly using his power (through the throne iirc) to protect those people travelling within his webway from daemons. I believe that is how it is explained in Collected visions at least.

[Phaeron John]

It should also be noted that we have no idea how the Celestial Orrery works.

For all we know, the device itself doesn't kill stars, but dispatches a fleet which does it (which isn't to say that star-killing ships aren't technologically impressive, but still...)

Actually we know for a fact it causes stars to go supernova simply by touching them on a galactic map. You can try to pick it apart all you want but the fact remains that every race currently living in the galaxy owes their continued existence on the sheer premise that the Necrons in charge of it are benevolent enough to let them go about their lives.

[Lord Damocles]

Actually we know for a fact it causes stars to go supernova simply by touching them on a galactic map. You can try to pick it apart all you want but the fact remains that every race currently living in the galaxy owes their continued existence on the sheer premise that the Necrons in charge of it are benevolent enough to let them go about their lives.

That's not what the description of the Orrery says at all.

'Snuff out one of these lights and it's physical counterpart will go supernova long millennia before its destined time, bringing fiery oblivion to all nearby worlds.'
Codex: Necrons (5th ed.), pg.15

Nothing at all about how it works (or even howe long it takes to work) is given in the description of the device.

Push a light switch, and a light will come on, illuminating the room.
That doesn't mean that the switch itself is producing the illumination.

[flota]

From what I understand from the description in A Thousand Sons, Magnus breeched the webway a substantial distance from Terra with assistance from a certain warp entity, so it seems that the webway is vulnerable to such damage no matter who made the section in question.

I've always thought that the main blocker stopping the Eldar reparations of the webway as the combination of resources and the substantial danger involved in fixing something that the warp bleeds directly into.

that entity isnt Tzeentch itself?

[The Red Pilgrim]

Secondly, I don't think Tzeentch knows everything otherwise his parts wouldn't be searching for more knowledge, and he's insane.

He's seeking parts of himself that he had to jettison, when the other gods rallied against him.

And perhaps you could provide me with a direct source quote, claiming that he's "insane".

[Poseidal]

He's seeking parts of himself that he had to jettison, when the other gods rallied against him.

And perhaps you could provide me with a direct source quote, claiming that he's "insane".

With the behaviour of the Chaos powers, there's little showing them to be 'sane' on a human level.

I guess 'insane' is probably not the correct word, because you can't really apply it to beings of such a position. You could say that the sentient ripples in the warp formed of billions upon billions of thoughts of living races and their direct soul link into the warp which has formed a sort of entity doesn't act in a way a sane humanoid would logically behave.

[El_Machinae]

What is 'insane' but the incorrect extrapolation of what the real universe is like? And because the nature of the Warp changes with the nature of the Chaos gods, it's hard to say that they're incorrectly understanding reality. Their whims affect and create aspects of reality!

[Poseidal]

What is 'insane' but the incorrect extrapolation of what the real universe is like? And because the nature of the Warp changes with the nature of the Chaos gods, it's hard to say that they're incorrectly understanding reality. Their whims affect and create aspects of reality!

“Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane.” —Anon