Which Race Was The Most Technologically Advanced At Their Peak?

[LordLucan]

Lupe: The Eldar at their peak, not the craftworlders.

Also, your first point is about the quality of eldar psykers, not their technology. Also, the webway allows time travel, as does the warp, both of which the eldar empire had much greater control of than the current eldar.

The Eldar emprie did not need to awaken avatars, because they could summon fully fledged gods to fight for them, alongside armie sof deathless robot soldiers to fight their wars for them.

The eldar at their height did not need to create metal bodies for themselves to stave off death; they were immortal and could reincarnate freely. Their immortality made the necrons' immortality look rather lacklustre.

Also, the eldar empire had, according to path of the renegade

nano machines that seem capable of creating mechanical duplicates of living eldar; duplicates/replacements that can also regenerate from damage.

[stormblade]

Also, your first point is about the quality of eldar psykers, not their technology. Also, the webway allows time travel, as does the warp, both of which the eldar empire had much greater control of than the current eldar.

The Eldar emprie did not need to awaken avatars, because they could summon fully fledged gods to fight for them, alongside armie sof deathless robot soldiers to fight their wars for them.

The eldar at their height did not need to create metal bodies for themselves to stave off death; they were immortal and could reincarnate freely. Their immortality made the necrons' immortality look rather lacklustre.

None of which had anything to do with their technology as they were, at the time, yet another psyker weapon unleashed by the OO.

Doesn't Czevak in his nothes mention that they fought with "swords, spears and their own twisted form of faith" or something like that?

I am not sure if their retained any of that abilites when they actually reached their peak, after the great war.

[bobafett_h]

Eldar have nothing on the Necrons, in my opinion.

Where one race struggles to foresee the future, through half glimpsed dreams and careful interpretation, the other can bend time itself to its will...

Where one race sacrifices one of their own to awaken a sliver of a god, the other built living metal bodies for a pahtheon they discovered on their own...

Where one race stores their dead in fragile soulstones, the other encased their living in the same nigh-indestructible living metal bodies...

Using the Eldar as they are now, rather than how they were millions of years ago before The Fall is not the best basis for comparison...

Eldar Farseers do not struggle to foresee the future, they just don't delve as far as they used to due to fear of Slaanesh capturing their minds.
Also Farseers have been known to bend time, one example being in Dawn of War II...

Supposedly the C'Tan assisted the Necrontyr with placing their consciousnesses into soulless bodies of living metal. I don't believe they were able to do it on their own. And again, the Craftworld Eldar fear being consumed by Slaanesh which is why they use Spirit Stones, it is to protect their dead and preserve them. I would also suggest that Wraithbone has almost identical properties as the living metal used by Necrons. It is considered to be indestructible, can self repair, and is also able to be formed into any shape by Bonesingers...

None of which had anything to do with their technology as they were, at the time, yet another psyker weapon unleashed by the OO.

Doesn't Czevak in his nothes mention that they fought with "swords, spears and their own twisted form of faith" or something like that?

I am not sure if their retained any of that abilites when they actually reached their peak, after the great war.

It is true that psychic prowess is not an indication of technological advancement, however I believe it would have allowed them to develop their technology faster. This makes me think of Jedis needing to use the Force to assemble a lightsabre. Many aspects of their technology now relies on the abilities of Bonesingers which is an Eldar path that uses some skills similar to that of the Seer.

Most races in 40k, still use spears and swords. Some of which are far more advanced than others. From what I recall though, one of the best CC weapons in the game at one point was the Callidus Assassin's C'Tan Phase Sword...

The Dark Eldar are meant to be the closest representation of what the Eldar race was like prior to The Fall which is meant to have happened long after the Old Ones fought against the Necrontyr and C'Tan. I believe that the Eldar would have been even more warped and twisted and arrogant than the Dark Eldar are now for Slaanesh to have been birthed and for the Eye of Terror to have been formed. To reach that level of depravity, I would also believe their technology would have fallen somewhat from where it was at the peak of their race...

[Lupe]

@Lord Lucan; bobbafett

The argument can be made that what few glimpses of Necron tech we see are not exactly representative of their peak yet, either. So far, it seems only the basic tech is awake (troops, transports, basic command structure and bodyguards). More wonders are sure to follow soon. And what's now buried under the sand across millions of tombworlds is just what survived the Necrons' own cataclysms (i.e a two wars with the Old ones, and another with the C'tan, with various degrees of civil war in between, for good measure).

I will agree that my points are a bit sketchy and chaotic, but I don't see the problem with picking on the Eldar's psychic powers. Their whole race is inherently psychic, and a good deal of their technology is based on that very axiom. Wraithbone is white, space is cold, eldar are psykers.

I avoided the Commoragh version here for two reasons.
First of all, as I said, Eldar at their peak were psychic, and their lifestyle was tailored around that fact. Just the mere act of renouncing all psychic abilities means that Dark Eldar tech we have today is much less representative of what pre-fall Eldar had at their disposal.
The second is that Dark Eldar are, by force of circumstances, an extremely darwinistic species. Essentially, they're actively looking for anything that will give them an edge. While most of that creative drive is squandered on hedonistic pursuits or petty infighting, their rate of innovation is most likely higher than anything their craftworld counterparts could ever ope to acheive. So, a great deal of what the Dark Eldar have now could have been discovered not just past their peak, but well after the Fall.


However, a good catch has been brought up in the Doom of Mymeara thread. Even though I didn't agree with the point it was meant to drive home, the fact still remains. The Craftworlders have access to the Infinity Matrix, and although I'm sure this is, at the best of times, a flawed recollection of the past, they at least have some idea of the old days, and what was available to them at the time. Craftworl Eldar posses, by my reasoning, the closest approximation of what pre-Fall Eldar tech used to be...

BIG FAT EDIT

Damn, I should not be posting after drinking... I had a simpler way to justify using Craftworld Eldar and 5th ed Necrons as proxies for approximating the peaks of two declining races.

I just remembered that the Eldar's peak was likely thousand of years before their Fall (or that little squicking incident with Slaanesh, as we like to call it).
A long, slow decline preceded their Fall. Dark Eldar are so concerned with their own personal present and future that they never look back. They wouldn't even begin to know what their race could call upon at the very apex.

Craftworlders fled during the decline because they felt like their race was going on a slippery slope. They had some idea what life was in the golden age of their empire, and one of the reasons they survived is because they distanced themselves from the declining core of the civilization. Those original craftworlders are still in the Infinity Matrix / Circuit / thingie. They're the ones with the vision to drive the new generations of Eldar towards restoring the galaxy spanning Empire while still preventing the mistakes of the past

[ManOfRust]

Those original craftworlders are still in the Infinity Matrix / Circuit / thingie. They're the ones with the vision to drive the new generations of Eldar towards restoring the galaxy spanning Empire while still preventing the mistakes of the past

Or chain their descendants into a philosophy destined to drive them all to totally different peaks of insanity as they strive for perfection in countless, infinite variations of the Paths, a tool of mind that makes an Eldar little more than a beautifully perfect tool. Still living weapons, millions of years later...

[Bergen Beerbelly]

Eldar were the most technologically advanced living race pre-fall. It says it right in the codex.

So that leaves Necrons being the most technologically advanced dead race.

Eldar technology before the fall was never surpassed by anyone. It was however matched by the Necrons. There is nothing that the Necrons have that is light years above what the Eldar pre fall possess. If they did have something that did we would have seen the fluff for it and there isn't any. We do however see fluff for plenty of stuff that matches Eldar tech from the Necrons in similar ways only minus the psychic part.

[Lord Damocles]

Doesn't Czevak in his nothes mention that they fought with "swords, spears and their own twisted form of faith" or something like that?

You're thinking of Inquisitor Horst recounting the tale of how the Eldar fought against the Void Dragon during the War in Heaven - 'These events occured aeons before the Eldar had mastered such things [plasma weaponry]. They fought with swords, spears and their own twisted version of faith. And it was found wanting' ('The Cripple and the Dragon' in 'Translations of Pretinent Eldar Mythic Cycles', in White Dwarf 273, pg.29).

Of course, they 'cheated' somewhat in the account, with their god(s) granting them access to the Talismans of Vaul, Swords of Khaine, and [presumed] wraith technology.


The Eldar didn't spend the whole of the War in Heaven with such a technology level though - the description of Zapennec (Codex: Necrons (5th ed.), pg.16 shows that the Eldar had a sizeable fleet towards the end of the War, and 'Kal Jericho: Above and Beyond' in Warhammer Monthly #67 features a picture of War in Heaven -era Eldar wearing armour and wielding weapons which don't look too dissimilar to 'present day' kit (although the image might not be accurate; it could be Inquisitor Orechiel's imaginings of the scene).

[LordLucan]

None of which had anything to do with their technology as they were, at the time, yet another psyker weapon unleashed by the OO.

Doesn't Czevak in his nothes mention that they fought with "swords, spears and their own twisted form of faith" or something like that?

I am not sure if their retained any of that abilites when they actually reached their peak, after the great war.

I was responding to Lupe, who was arguing that the current necorns were more advanced than the current craftworlders. I don't disagree with Lupe that this is so, however, the eldar empire at its peak looked notihng like the craftworlders' current technological level.

I don't know what you are disagreeing with me about; my post was entirely relevant there. Technological advancement of the eldar during the War in Heaven is relevent, even though they were a 'weapon' race. The Old Ones manipulated the eldar's evolution, they didn't built all their tech for them or anything. The Eldar did that, and the eldar created their gods (though what their gods actually are/were is a bit more complicated). I will admit that the webway was not originally theres, but they learnt how to use it and how to build, improve and expand upon it; you wouldn't say our ability to build roads isn't relevant just because the romans had roads before us, so the utilisation fot he webway counts as par tof their technological progression.

Furthermore, the war in heaven eldar were not spear-wielding savages throughout the war, as it lasted for millennia upon millennia. Maybe they began as a primitive culture int he early stage sof the war, but by the end of the war they were a force which the necrons were not sure they could defeat in their weakened state. In the necron codex, it is clear that the eldar fought the necrons in space at some point with ships of their own, and by the end of the war, when the necrons were messed up after shattering the C'tan, the eldar were powerful enough to represent a threat to the necrons.

And finally yes they did retain their powers of regeneration at the peak of their empire. They only lost their ability to regenerate once slannesh was born and began eating their souls wholesale.

[El_Machinae]

Eldar technology before the fall was never surpassed by anyone. It was however matched by the Necrons. There is nothing that the Necrons have that is light years above what the Eldar pre fall possess. If they did have something that did we would have seen the fluff for it and there isn't any. We do however see fluff for plenty of stuff that matches Eldar tech from the Necrons in similar ways only minus the psychic part.

Yeah, this is what I meant. The Necrons don't have many things that are scads more awesome than the Eldar equivalent. A few, sure, maybe. Or maybe I'm just not really paying attention.

It really could be a question of their being a 'hard limit' on technological progress, that additional science/intelligence cannot really overcome.

[Lupe]

I don't know, guys... For some reason, I keep having the idea lodged in the back of my mind that somehow the Necrons actually have a lot more up their sleeve than we have encountered so far. Much like the Tyranids, there's a very high likelihood that this is just the tip of the iceberg...

[LordLucan]

I don't know, guys... For some reason, I keep having the idea lodged in the back of my mind that somehow the Necrons actually have a lot more up their sleeve than we have encountered so far. Much like the Tyranids, there's a very high likelihood that this is just the tip of the iceberg...

I agree with you.

However, we also do not have a clear idea of everythign the Eldar Empire had up its sleeves as it were. They were stealing suns and creating pocket dimensions and stuff too remember, and that is jsut the stuff we know about.

This is why it is hard to compare the technological peaks of each 40K race, as Warhammer 40K is inherently a post-apocalyptic setting, for all involved (save the Tau). By its nature, knowledge of past heights of technology has become mythologised and mingles with the hyperbole of in-univers ebiased sources, but also the setting is deliberately vague about those portions of the setting, in order to facilitate and accomodate new revelations in later codex/stories. If a story requires a doomsday weapon which didn't exist before, the writers can jsut say 'this is one of the old eldar empire's forgotten super weapons' or 'this necron weapon one the only one to survive the necorn/C'tan war intact' or something.

We are also forgetting somewhat that being 'technologically advanced' is not a uniform tihng. One race could be considered more tehcnologically advanced, but utterly lack any development in one area of science or technological development.

[eldargal]

That applies just as much to the Eldar Empire, if not moreso. We know little about the Eldar Empire, but we do know their position was unassailable prior to the Fall and even the Necrons fled from their retribution rather than fight according to the latest codex. Admittedly the Necrons were bloodied from their conflict with the Old Ones and/or C'tan, but the fact remains they still fled and decided it was better to hide for tens of millions of years in the hope the Eldar Empire would fall rather than make a fight of it.

I don't know, guys... For some reason, I keep having the idea lodged in the back of my mind that somehow the Necrons actually have a lot more up their sleeve than we have encountered so far. Much like the Tyranids, there's a very high likelihood that this is just the tip of the iceberg...

[mdman1]

Wait, so the necrons didn't beat the WiH Eldar? Um, for someone who hasn't read the latest necron codex what exactly happened in the War in Heaven then? Presumably after they (C'tan & necrons) killed the Old Ones how did the Eldar manage to drive off the Necrons and C'tan (who I heard were fighting each other)?

[Lord Damocles]

Wait, so the necrons didn't beat the WiH Eldar? Um, for someone who hasn't read the latest necron codex what exactly happened in the War in Heaven then? Presumably after they (C'tan & necrons) killed the Old Ones how did the Eldar manage to drive off the Necrons and C'tan (who I heard were fighting each other)?

Extremely edited highlights:

- Old Ones defeated
- Necrons turn on C'tan
- C'tan destroyed or splintered into shards
- Necrons take heavy casualties and can't be sure of victory over the remaining Eldar
- Necrons go into stasis to wait them out

[DietDolphin]

I'm gunna say necrons simply because they can basically do anything in reality and it is all done with technology, even things that are considered impossible. While the Eldar can give them a run for their money they use alot of magic to compensate which is no more technological than the tyranids evolving.

[eldargal]

It isn't magic, it is psychic technology. I think in a universe where psychic power is a very real force splitting the two is a false distinction.

I love the new War in Heaven fluff, Necrons now have their own backstory and the Eldar have their mythology back. The old version did justice to neither race and caused a whole lot of needless resentment between Eldar and Necron players.

[stormblade]

It isn't magic, it is psychic technology. I think in a universe where psychic power is a very real force splitting the two is a false distinction.

So a cultist splitting open a sacrifical victims' belly in order to achieve something is actually a scientist or a craftsman?

[Lupe]

Well, it probably took a bit of experimentation before they came out with a working set of rituals the first time around...

[eldargal]

No but a Bonesinger crafting a shuriken rifle out of solidifed psychic matter is.

So a cultist splitting open a sacrifical victims' belly in order to achieve something is actually a scientist or a craftsman?

[stormblade]

Why? They're both interactions with the warp which are codified by the means of ritual and achivie results.