Which Race Was The Most Technologically Advanced At Their Peak?

[Stonerhino]

With a gesture, Kaelis Ra slew all those near it. With a glance, it condemned the souls of great warriors to an eternity of dust.

An "Eternity of dust" is not going into the warp and reincarnating. It's quotes directly stating that the Nightbringer was destroying souls. The "Warp joo-joo" you are saying thay can't consume. Well you don't have to actually eat something to destroy it. In the end if it's gone its gone.

[Lord Damocles]

That idea has been around for a while now.

It even made it into the new codex:

'Their [Necrontyr] superior numbers and technologies were constantly outmanoeuvred by the Old Ones' mastery of the webway portals.'
Codex: Necrons (5th ed.), pg.6

[Iron_Lord]

The C'tan "feasting on the souls of the Necrontyr" was also mentioned- and it emphasises that this is why the present-day Necrons are soulless.

[bobafett_h]

"Their technological and cultural achievements excelled those of all other races..." page 4, Codex: Eldar (2006)

There are also similar quotes about the Necrons in other books. So basically no one at GW is able to make up their mind as to who was the most technologically advanced race...

[Idaan]

An "Eternity of dust" is not going into the warp and reincarnating. It's quotes directly stating that the Nightbringer was destroying souls. The "Warp joo-joo" you are saying thay can't consume. Well you don't have to actually eat something to destroy it. In the end if it's gone its gone.

The Eldar who created this myth wouldn't know that the warp was totally foreign to the C'tan. In Eldar mythology they're another subset of demigods, not the star-vampires they really are. And if there has to be a basis for this passage, it can be easily explained as some sort of null field covering the battlefield, preventing the souls from entering the Warp.

"Their technological and cultural achievements excelled those of all other races..." page 4, Codex: Eldar (2006)

There are also similar quotes about the Necrons in other books. So basically no one at GW is able to make up their mind as to who was the most technologically advanced race...

The rest of the paragraph implies that they excelled over other races that lived in the galaxy at the same time, not all existing races since the Big Bang until the heat death of the universe:

Their technological and cultural achievements excelled those of all other races, and in their hubris none amongst them doubted that this state of affairs would continue indefinitely. In many ways the Eldar had good reason for such conceit, for no other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth and stability for countless millennia.

The Necrons aren't one of these races, because they weren't active at the time.

In fact, I much prefer the version where Necrons had overall superiority in technology, and the Eldar prospered because the Necrons were not around. There were some areas related to psychic powers where Eldar excelled, but Necrons had the edge.
Sadly, the new codex muddied the waters somewhat, taking away the Necrons' main advantage of Warpless FTL and forcing them to piggyback on the Webway (that's what the literal reading of the codex says, I know there are ways around it), and on the other hand giving them Farseeing 2.0 in the form of just watching stars. IMHO this diluted the archetypes a lot, something I know GW used to refrain from.

[Stonerhino]

The Eldar who created this myth wouldn't know that the warp was totally foreign to the C'tan. In Eldar mythology they're another subset of demigods, not the star-vampires they really are. And if there has to be a basis for this passage, it can be easily explained as some sort of null field covering the battlefield, preventing the souls from entering the Warp.

While I will agree that there are times when you can take a myth and look at it from different points of views. that change how it is interpretated. The problem with this when applied to that part of the story. Is that its stated to emphasized the total loss of the victim.

You also have the Nightbringer's name to the Eldar. Kaelis Ra, which means "The Destroyer of Light" [Oldcron codex]. The Ra part is stated to mean "Light" when used for the Nightbringer. Is also shown to mean "Soul" [Eldar codex] for example Maugan Ra "The harvester of Souls". Birth of Fear also has the possible translations for this as well.

You even have things on the material universe that affect the souls of people. Since we are talking about Eldar a Soul Stone is a good example. So there is a connection between the subjects body, items around them and their "Soul". Especially at the time the material body dies.

We also know that the Old Ones did die and did not simply hide in the warp. The Newcron codex states this. Iron Lord, pointed out that the Newcron Codex also has the C'Tan feasting on the Necrontyr's souls. Giving more sources to the creditbility of emphasis given in Birth of Fear.

@Lord Damocles: I know I just wanted to point it out from an older source before someone piped in with how Ward has ruined the entire fluff for 40K. And in a few years have to constantly correct poeple blaming Ward for changing so much about the Necron's past. When nearly everything is the same as before the codex's release.

[El_Machinae]

So, how much of the current Necron uber-tech is due to their alliance with the C'tan? As in, "it wouldn't have been invented without the star gods"?

[baphomael]

On the subject of ctan feasting on souls, I do remember oldcron fluff mentioning daemons flocking toward ctan tombworlds to feast on the discarded souls from whatever harvesting process the ctan use to feed on living essence.

Id imagine the word soul was used for the sake of simplicity, more than anything else. A convenient short hand to describe the ctan predilection for consuming the life essence of mortal beings. Ward probably didn't anticipate us pedantic geeks going into the metaphysical nature of the 40k soul and its relationship to the warp and realspace in quite such depth

[Lord Damocles]

On the subject of ctan feasting on souls, I do remember oldcron fluff mentioning daemons flocking toward ctan tombworlds to feast on the discarded souls from whatever harvesting process the ctan use to feed on living essence.

That was the daemon Hrangore's account of the tomb of the Void Dragon on Mars (''A sacrifice of men, but the precious souls are not consumed, they are cast adrift. many are the daemons that wait like carrion to feast on the leavings from this rich table'' (Codex: Necrons (3rd ed.), pg.26, 'Visions of a Sleeping God')).

The only time that the C'tan have been stated to feed on souls is:
'The C'tan needed warrior-slaves to harvest the lifeforms of the galaxy so the star gods can feast on souls...'
'Who Are The Necrons?' on GW website (no longer existing)

Given the rather wide range of what the C'tan have been said to feed on (eg. energy from stars (Codex: Necrons (3rd ed.), pg.28), emotion(s) (Codex: Necrons (3rd ed.), pgs.28/63), life 'essence' (Codex: Necrons (3rd ed.), pg.8), 'life energy', 'life force' (Codex: Necrons (5th ed.), pg.7), and souls (Who Are The Necrons?)), it could be that they're all interlinked and the 'soul' and life 'energy'/force'/'essence' being part of the same... erm, 'bit' of living creatures.

[Iron_Lord]

The only time that the C'tan have been stated to feed on souls is:
'The C'tan needed warrior-slaves to harvest the lifeforms of the galaxy so the star gods can feast on souls...'
'Who Are The Necrons?' on GW website (no longer existing)

Given the rather wide range of what the C'tan have been said to feed on (eg. energy from stars (Codex: Necrons (3rd ed.), pg.28), emotion(s) (Codex: Necrons (3rd ed.), pgs.28/63), life 'essence' (Codex: Necrons (3rd ed.), pg.8), 'life energy', 'life force' (Codex: Necrons (5th ed.), pg.7), and souls (Who Are The Necrons?)), it could be that they're all interlinked and the 'soul' and life 'energy'/force'/'essence' being part of the same... erm, 'bit' of living creatures.

Possible.

page 7 5E Codex Necrons

His new machine body was far mightier than the frail form he had tolerated for so long, and his toughest were swifter and clearer than they had ever been. Yet there was an emptiness gnawing at his mind, an inexpressible hollowness of spirit that defied rational explanation. In that moment he knew that the price of physical immortality had been the loss of his soul. With great sorrow the Silent King behold the fate he had brought on his people: the Necrontyr were now but a memory, and the soulless Necrons reborn in their place.

Though I suppose it could simply be a case of "the soul didn't transfer over".

Black Crusade: Hand of Corruption does describe the C'tan as having devoured the Necrontyr's souls:
page 135:

These star gods had also gone to war with the Old Ones and been defeated, though they assured the Silent King that, together, they could find victory once and for all. To further entice their would-be allies, the C'tan promised immortality in the form of metal bodies, which would know no disease, frailty or death.

The Necrontyr accepted this gift eagerly, though they quickly came to regret their decision. The cost of their immortality was paid with their souls, devoured by the C'tan during the transference into their new metal shells.
...
While the C'tan, invigorated by the souls of the Necrontyr, set about crushing the Old Ones, the Silent King committed only sparingly and marshalled his forces for the battle that was to come. When the war was won and the star gods had spent their last reserves of power, the Silent King set upon the C'tan and shattered their corporeal forms. Unable to annihilate them utterly, the Necrons set about containing and imprisoning the remnants of the C'tan throughout their empire.

[Lord Damocles]

Black Crusade: Hand of Corruption does describe the C'tan as having devoured the Necrontyr's souls:
page 135:

Oh, I didn't know Hand of Corruption featured Necrons. Nice catch


And just because we all love a good contradiction:

'Housing the souls of their most favoured devotees...'
Black Crusade Core Rulebook, pg.369, 'Immortals'

[Iron_Lord]

Oh, I didn't know Hand of Corruption featured Necrons. Nice catch


And just because we all love a good contradiction:

'Housing the souls of their most favoured devotees...'
Black Crusade Core Rulebook, pg.369, 'Immortals'

I think that Black Crusade came out a little before 5E codex did though.
Earlier in the same Immortals section:

"The god-beings of the Necrons did not bestow their perverse gifts without forethought and purpose. The legion of living metal they created was shaped with direction and design, each body crafted to a specific end, each soul entombed in steel for a known fate."

[Stonerhino]

So, how much of the current Necron uber-tech is due to their alliance with the C'tan? As in, "it wouldn't have been invented without the star gods"?

This type of statement is silly. Once a race has a working knowledge of how to build something and how it works. They own that technology.

It would be like trying to say that the Eldar don't get to claim anything that has to do with the webway because the Old Ones tought them how to do it.

[ManOfRust]

This type of statement is silly. Once a race has a working knowledge of how to build something and how it works. They own that technology.

Unless they forgot how to do it, or never really understood it in the first place. The Cold War fear of nuclear proliferation was about the knowledge of building new Atomic devices getting out, the real danger came from states without the ability to build them simply buying them from their allies. If the Necrontyr relied on some action of the C'tan to achieve something then they may not be able to replicate it in the 41st Millenium.

Similarly, the Eldar have a far greater understanding of the Webway collectively than any other race but even they can't repair the terrible damage that it sustained during the Fall. If they could, surely they would have done so?

Kroot have gained tremendous understanding of science from the Orks, sufficient to build starships, but still get enhanced ammunition from the Tau. Go figure.

[LordLucan]

Similarly, the Eldar have a far greater understanding of the Webway collectively than any other race but even they can't repair the terrible damage that it sustained during the Fall. If they could, surely they would have done so?

Because a lot of sections are infested with daemons and are unretrievable. It isn't that they can't repair it, it is that they can't reach it without being murder-raped by warp entities and daemons. They voluntarily seal off webway sections to protect themselves.

[Idaan]

Similarly, the Eldar have a far greater understanding of the Webway collectively than any other race but even they can't repair the terrible damage that it sustained during the Fall. If they could, surely they would have done so?

They can and they do. "Path of the Warrior" shows sections of the Webway that have been repaired. The only problem is that they don't have the infrastructure and resources to conduct full scale repairs. A parallel would be the Roman Empire - contrary to what people think, after 476 CE they didn't suddenly forget how to build aqueducts and highways, but none of the states that arose from Rome's ruins could afford an undertaking of that scale. Nor would they need it, as they didn't have to transport troops between borders thousands of kilometers apart.

Some authors might portray the other races in the similar "dark ages" vein that the Imperium is portrayed in, but the main source material shows the Eldar at least as not suffering from it, and understand 99% of things that they do.

[ManOfRust]

They can and they do. "Path of the Warrior" shows sections of the Webway that have been repaired. The only problem is that they don't have the infrastructure and resources to conduct full scale repairs. A parallel would be the Roman Empire - contrary to what people think, after 476 CE they didn't suddenly forget how to build aqueducts and highways, but none of the states that arose from Rome's ruins could afford an undertaking of that scale. Nor would they need it, as they didn't have to transport troops between borders thousands of kilometers apart.

Some authors might portray the other races in the similar "dark ages" vein that the Imperium is portrayed in, but the main source material shows the Eldar at least as not suffering from it, and understand 99% of things that they do.

I am not sure about Path of the Warrior but 4th ed Eldar Codex was pretty clear on 40K Eldar not having great understanding of the current fractured webway, where all of the passages go, what's living there now etc...

I agree that they do understand it to some degree and can close gates to seal off sections, but that seems pretty basic. If they were still the Webway's masters shouldn't they be able to build new sections (even tiny little infantry passages) to bypass those parts too dangerous to navigate? Or create entirely new webway portals where-ever they want to go? It's been 10,000 years so the idea that some Craftworlds are still completely cut-off just through lack of time/resource stretches credibility in my mind.

And as far as the Eldar not being in their Dark Age, if the pre-Fall Eldar were Romans then not only did Rome get sacked but Visgoths leveled Italy to the bedrock and half the Senate ate the other half. And Vesuvius swallowed what was left. This is the twilight for the Eldar, their culture is completely changed from before the Fall. I agree that after the Roman Empire fell, the masons and the craftsmen that survived didn't just forget - there was just no application for their skills when just staying alive in a society turned on it's head was more important. But they grew old and died, their children and apprentices didn't learn the skills because they didn't need to know how to build 30ft arches either. Eventually the skills did die, were forgotten and needed to be re-learned 500 years later when kingdoms got their act together enough to actually bother with a road wider than one horse could ride down.

But the Eldar aren't Romans, all of their knowledge is preserved forever inside the Infinity Circuits. Modern Eldar are stuck in their paths, technology is effortless for them but it flows from their own creativity and rigid mentality. Most of the weapons that Aspect Warriors use are made by an earlier Aspect Warrior or the Exarch of the shrine and the design is limited by the mind of the Eldar as much as the physically possible. At least, that is the reason that we are given for Exarchs getting better gear and all close combat aspects not having power weapons...

Although it does make me wonder if there could be an Exarch on the path of weapon design responsible for all those Cobras and Scorpions that Forgeworld bring out.

[bildo]

erm....the most advanced race were the snotlings.....or old ones as they are also known

[Lord Damocles]

erm....the most advanced race were the snotlings.....or old ones as they are also known

If you believe one version of a myth.

And if you ignore the question of whether the Old Ones actually were more technologically advanced than the Necron[tyr].

And if you ignore then fact that there's no Codex: Old Ones.

Then sure.

[Victrix]

Let's play a game.

If you think "your side" is superior, list a technology that proves it.
Others can then counter with other technologies.

And as much as it hurts the Eldar lovers, we can't really bring up psychic powers.
Because that's like saying the ability to build a blow torch, and the ability of a psyker to conjure a burning flame are the same technological feat. Does some hard-technology involve the warp? Yes. But we're talking about a half-sentient force that can "skip" quite a few steps that hard science is needed to replicate.